Final 500

[kmohr3]

Does anyone here own, or ever seen in person, a Final 500 Intrigue? I've only seen them in pictures. They look like a pretty sharp car.

I'll miss the Oldsmobiles when they're all gone. (They should have discontinued Buick instead of Olds).

[Docholiday]

I beg to differ, they should have killed Saturn.....GM's Ugly Car Division. I kinda think Olds lives on. That new Buick Lacross is for sure the 2005 Olds Intrigue! Considering the horribly styled Century/Regal, Buick did its share of raiding Olds after the demise. Bravada now a Ranier, Silouette now a Terraza etc etc. Olds Rocked!!

[kmohr3]

The only thing bad about Buick is the fact that they can say "I'm an old timer", I do think the newer Centurys and Regals look kind of nice - (maybe that means I'm gettin older too.)

PS, no offense to anybody with the age thing, I'm starting to get up there myself!

[Docholiday]

Buick definitely caters to a certain demographic and always has...the Old Timer. Olds was cool and GM should have left it alone. Saturns on the other hand suck sooo bad!!

[Laser17]

i'm surprised saturns don't melt in hot sun...

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by Docholiday

Buick definitely caters to a certain demographic and always has...the Old Timer. Olds was cool and GM should have left it alone. Saturns on the other hand suck sooo bad!!

I believe that there are an equally amount of old folks driving Olds and Buicks. The difference is the Buicks out sold Olds and GM pulled the plug.
The quality problems of Oldsmobile didn't help either. Even AARP couldn't save Olds. My '01 Regal GS has been totally trouble free and rocks.

[Ruley73]

Docholiday why do you think Saturns suck so bad? I strongly disagree. I once owned a couple SC2s myself ('95 auto, '97 manual). Both are easily some of the best cars I've driven. Especially when compared to other GM products of the same era. I currently own a '95 Regal GS 3.8L and my fiance has a '99 Intrigue GL 3.5L. Although I like my Regal very much, I would still take my '97 SC2 over my Regal in a heartbeat. It was a stick, it got much better MPG, it had all the extras my Regal has and more, it was faster & quicker, handled better, had just as good or better build quality, was just as reliable, was easier to maintain and it would never have rusted out rocker panels like the Regal has right now.

I love the Intrigue though and I would be tempted to take that over the Saturn. I think its the best mid-size sedan ever to come from GM to date. I've test driven the new LaCrosse CXS 3.6L. I do agree that it is strikingly similar to the Intrigue. When parked side by side you can very much see that they're relatives (Lacrosse uses an improved W-body chassis). However, I still prefer the Intrigue over the LaCrosse. The Intrigue is simpler to operate (less confusing HVAC & radio controls)has more backseat room, break away side mirrors, and it drives better overall than the Lacrosse. The 3.6L in the Lacrosse is disappointing and is detuned (down to 240 HP, the Caddy CTS has 255) way too much to make it quiet.

GM couldn't have killed Buick because at the time the LeSabre was the best-selling full-size sedan for over 10 years. They couldn't kill Saturn because they didn't have the authority to do so due to Saturn being their own Corporation. It would have been a bad move anyways because the S-Series were selling so well. The L-Series are OK, but the new Ions are crap.

The bottom line is that the new Olds image just didn't take off and it's GMs own fault because they did not invest enough in advertising the Olds brand. It's a shame because they (Alero, Intrigue, Aurora) were all great cars too. I can hardly wait for the 2007 Saturn Aura. I think this will be a great car as well.

[Docholiday]

From Lemon-Updates:

GM’s Saturn: a ‘Dead Man Walking’
GM’s Saturn division is in serious trouble due to chronic powertrain problems, that its recent purchase of Honda engines won’t cure.

Japanese and South Korean competitors have been proven to offer far better quality for a slightly higher cost. Even GM’s less pretentious models, like the Cavalier and Sunfire offer better quality and value for the money.

Saturns have exhibited a plethora of serious mechanical problems, which GM has masked by setting up extended warranties applicable to original buyers. Owners of used Saturns say they are treated like they’re from some other planet.

Engines and Trannies

In a March 2000 Customer Satisfaction Campaign letter (No: 00-C-09) sent to dealers, GM admits that the Saturn 2.2L 4-cylinder engines “were produced with internal engine components that may fail prematurely.” GM says it will replace the engine at no charge with no mileage or time limitations, in addition to providing a loaner vehicle or paying rental costs.

Faulty CVT automatic transmissions forced GM to halt production of the Ion Coupe and Vue during the first quarter of 2004; almost 200,000 units were affected. Saturn owners say the transmission hesitates at low speeds, causes the engine to surge, and makes grinding noises. Automotive News reports that when the CVT was introduced on late-2002 models, it had been delayed a year due to problems with inconsistent machining of parts, the hydraulic pump, and the software.”

Saturn’s ads are far better than the company’s cars and Vue SUV (Vue service bulletins show serious powertrain defects). Don’t go anywhere near a new or used Saturn unless you’re armed to the teeth with a comprehensive extended warranty

...Hate to say I told you so! Saturn has lost their focus. They are absolutely nothing special anymore....especially when you look at their hideous panel gaps and bland horrid styling. For the cash you get bad quality and a dork-mobile. They cheap plastic interior and the heavy glue smell are the throw-ins. Lucky You!!

[Ruley73]

Originally Posted by Docholiday

From Lemon-Updates:

GM’s Saturn: a ‘Dead Man Walking’
GM’s Saturn division is in serious trouble due to chronic powertrain problems, that its recent purchase of Honda engines won’t cure.

Japanese and South Korean competitors have been proven to offer far better quality for a slightly higher cost. Even GM’s less pretentious models, like the Cavalier and Sunfire offer better quality and value for the money.

Saturns have exhibited a plethora of serious mechanical problems, which GM has masked by setting up extended warranties applicable to original buyers. Owners of used Saturns say they are treated like they’re from some other planet.

Engines and Trannies

In a March 2000 Customer Satisfaction Campaign letter (No: 00-C-09) sent to dealers, GM admits that the Saturn 2.2L 4-cylinder engines “were produced with internal engine components that may fail prematurely.” GM says it will replace the engine at no charge with no mileage or time limitations, in addition to providing a loaner vehicle or paying rental costs.

Faulty CVT automatic transmissions forced GM to halt production of the Ion Coupe and Vue during the first quarter of 2004; almost 200,000 units were affected. Saturn owners say the transmission hesitates at low speeds, causes the engine to surge, and makes grinding noises. Automotive News reports that when the CVT was introduced on late-2002 models, it had been delayed a year due to problems with inconsistent machining of parts, the hydraulic pump, and the software.”

Saturn’s ads are far better than the company’s cars and Vue SUV (Vue service bulletins show serious powertrain defects). Don’t go anywhere near a new or used Saturn unless you’re armed to the teeth with a comprehensive extended warranty

...Hate to say I told you so! Saturn has lost their focus. They are absolutely nothing special anymore....especially when you look at their hideous panel gaps and bland horrid styling. For the cash you get bad quality and a dork-mobile. They cheap plastic interior and the heavy glue smell are the throw-ins. Lucky You!!

Hate to say I told you so?....What you just posted has hardly anything to do with what I said. The S-series and L-Series are two totally different cars with two different chassis and drivetrains. I was just agreeing with you that Saturn's present vehicles are crap. I thought I made it clear that the S-Series are the good Saturns IMO.

The "Saturn 2.2L" you mentioned is the (same) Ecotec 2.2L I-4 that GM/Opel engineered in Germany, and is now used in many of GMs compact cars. The 2000 Saturn L-series was the first application of this engine. Since then GM has worked out the bugs and made it a world-class engine. It has been proven withstand up to 500 HP with stock internal parts. Even the NHRA drag racers that use this engine use a STOCK block. Since the demise of the S-series, GM has made it very obivous that Saturn has basically been its Guinea Pig for the Ecotec engine and CVT. It took GM over 2 years to put the Ecotec in some of their other vehicles. The CVT is still not used in anything but Saturns and rumor has it that GM will soon be killing the CVT anyways. Saturn/GM is one of a few makes that have recently offered a CVT (Audi, Honda, Nissan, and Mini Cooper are significant others).

I do look foward to Saturns next generation of cars though. With the upcoming introduction of the 2006 Sky roadster and 250 HP 2007 Aura sedan, it does appear that the *new* Saturns will do just fine filling the import fighting void of the late Oldsmobiles.