not ANOTHER busted tranny thread

[LivingInZen]

Greetings, new to the board; wasn't able to find a similar situation through the search (but plenty of A604 horror stories all over the web).

1994 Voyager 3.0, 4 speed w/overdrive
296,000KM (184,000 miles), everything in good condition but for loud lifter noise

Aside from a few minor repairs (fuel pump, thermostat, distributer part), this van has ran well for me the last year and a half that I've driven it. Recently drove it 3000+ miles to California and back a couple months ago.

Problems started around the time I put new tires on - apparently, the old tires were smaller than OEM. With the new, slightly larger tires, the van would shudder under acceleration right around lockup in 4th gear. I brought it back to have balancing checked, and the shop claimed it was not a problem. I figured the larger wheel circumference was affecting the way the transmission shifts, so I pulled the battery to reset the computer. It drove fine the next morning, but by evening, the transmission was slipping and it limped home.

I have no idea when the tranny oil was changed so I changed the oil (ATF+3) and filter, and added a Lucas stop-slip additive. Old oil was brownish, but no chunks of metal in the pan, just a layer of fine black powder stuck to the magnet. The oil/filter change seemed to have fixed it - it no longer slipped, but would make an intermittent metal squeeking/grinding noise while in gear with the brake on.

It drove fine for about a week, then I started getting shudder again. Someone recommended that I take it on the highway and get the new oil all heated up and circulated in the system, so I did. About 20 minutes into my drive, cruising along at 60miles/hr, I heard a loud BANG, then the tranny completely disengaged. Had to get towed home. Once it cooled, the tranny now engages going forward (probably in second gear) but reverse is completely gone (reverse acts just like neutral).

To make a long story short, does anyone have any ideas what it could be (solenoid? TCM? worn clutch packs? pump? busted hard parts?)? Every tranny shop I call just wants to sell me a rebuilt one at the tune of $1300 to $1600. I just don't have that kind of money right now to throw at a vehicle that is barely worth that much, but is also a shame to throw away. These are the options that I see:

1) Master rebuild kit costs $213. I've never done this before, but am sure willing to give it a shot to save that kind of money. Is this something I can do at home given enough time and patience? Would the rebuild kit cover the parts that are likely broken in my case?

How high do I need to raise the van in order to get the tranny out? Is a floor jack going to be enough to lower it out?

2) Used tranny from local pick-ur-part is only about $80, but I wasn't able to find a low mileage one. Unless I can find a low mileage van that was crashed, this is probably not worth the trouble.

3) Junk the van for a couple hundred $$, and spend my $1500 on another beater...which is just as much of a gamble.

Help! I need wheels!
Any help appreciated, thanks much.

[moparroy]

Couple thoughts: I am assuming the 4 spd with the 3.0 is the same as the 3.3 - I have no experience with 3.0 specifically.
- probably not electrical related - not TCM and not likely solenoid pack - in limp in mode 2nd and reverse the tranny runs with no electrical power applied as the default mode. Since your reverse not working I hate to say it but I would guess hydraulic problem
- not likely the pump if 2nd is working and not slipping - manual says if any pressures are normal pump is good.
- you can test the hydraulics - suggest you have a factory manual for this - there are hydraulic test ports on the side of the tranny toward front of van - the threads are I think 1/16 NPT - I made up an adaptor and used a cheap hyd pressure gauge with a hose and good clamps - pressures are over 100 psi. Without further tests hard to say what the problem is - could be L/R clutch - the seals on that clutch were upgraded in a 1995 engineering change as I recall (originally a lip seal changed to a D seal)
- the $213 sounds like only the seal kit - I recently paid just over $300 Canadian for same for my intrepid. They don't sell a kit with all the clutch plates anymore - it used to be over $600 cdn. I spent another $300 or so on clutch plates and another $200 or so on other parts for a complete rebuild around $1000 - when I am into it i'd rather spend a little more and rebuild all of it - but you might be able to get away with just the clutch seals - the clutch plates do not wear much from what I have seen - unless you have burned them slipping
- I have rebuilt two in my garage - a 92 caravan and my 95 intrepid - but a factory service manual is a must - and study it carefully - I studied it for months before the van (failure was intermittent). You will also need to have or to make a few special tools - a mig welder is handy for this. Tools are needed to compress springs to remove and install snap rings. Also need a tool to remove the primary gears if you need to get at the L/R clutch - unfortunately it is in the very bottom of the trans
- if you decide to go for it - you need space to lay parts out in order - it must be kept clean - lub all the seals before you install - and be very careful taking it apart and note exactly what comes from where and which way it was in - several parts must go back the same way - it is a very tricky job - don't underestimate the complexity - and be sure all the snap rings are seated well

[theFREAKnasty82]

moparroy, you are absolutely correct, you know your stuff, just one other thing that I'd like to add, I rebuild Chrysler transmissions all the time, get a set of feeler gauges. In the rebuild service manual, it'll tell you what the exact clearances are for the clutch packs. If those clearances are not met, you could easily burn that tranny up quicker than you can blink your eye.

[yoji6365]

When is Chrysler gonna come up with a new transmission that isnt going to fail like they do now? Its ridiculous to have this many failures on the exact same part.

No wonder I was able to buy a 4 yr old van for $4k. I knew it was too good to be true.

If your van is still up to your standards eveyrwhere else, it should be worth it to get a new tranny. Buying another beater is gonna buy a different set of problems.

Do you have to have a minivan, or will any type of vehicle do?

[moparroy]

Originally Posted by theFREAKnasty82

moparroy, you are absolutely correct, you know your stuff, just one other thing that I'd like to add, I rebuild Chrysler transmissions all the time, get a set of feeler gauges. In the rebuild service manual, it'll tell you what the exact clearances are for the clutch packs. If those clearances are not met, you could easily burn that tranny up quicker than you can blink your eye.

Yes nasty82 you are right I forgot to mention that part - I used a vern to check them - I think the manual suggests a dial indicator- but whatever the method you need to check them.
Another thought occurred to me later is these transmissions are quite heavy since the diff is enclosed too - a tranny adaptor for your floor jack is a worth while investment.
For my the intreprid I had to get the car about 30" off the garage floor - I welded extension angle iron on some floor jacks to almost 3 ft high. I think the van did not need to be as high - you can bring the bell our through the wheel well. Measure it before you start.
Putting the the tranny back in the van was not easy. If I were to do another van I would take out the K fram altogether - get it out of the way so you dont have to dance the tranny around it.
Also make sure the converter is completely seated in the trans before you go to put it in - it can be deceiving - as a check measure from engine block to drive plate.

[moparroy]

[quote=yoji6365]When is Chrysler gonna come up with a new transmission that isnt going to fail like they do now? Its ridiculous to have this many failures on the exact same part.

No wonder I was able to buy a 4 yr old van for $4k. I knew it was too good to be true.
QUOTE]

Personally I think Chrysler's approach of refining the design - continuous improvement of these transmissions over the past 10 years was the right one - there have been a lot of design upgrades since the mid 90s. These overdrive automatics are quite a bit more complex than the old 3 speeds - many more moving parts and seals etc. If you start from scratch you are likely to end up with another set of weaknesses in the design and start all over again. I've seen lots of horror stories about Ford winstar trannys too - and others including ones from across the pond.
If its rebuilt with all the upgrades I think its a good unit.

[typesix]

When these 4 speed trannies first came out, Chrysler was boasting that these would be more reliable than the 3 speed because the 4 speeds had less moving parts due to electronics but you 're saying that the 4 speeds actually have more parts.

[fishing1000]

Use a digital camera to make lots of pictures of yout transmission before and after you disassemble it. You will need the pictures to put things back into their correct locations.

[LivingInZen]

Thanks for all the tips guys.

- not likely the pump if 2nd is working and not slipping - manual says if any pressures are normal pump is good.

Actually, I think it does slip in second (or whatever forward gear it's engaging in). It slipped the time I tried it on the highway waiting for the tow truck. Have not tried it again since I don't have reverse, and wouldn't be able to get it back in the garage. So this might point to the pump?

- you can test the hydraulics - suggest you have a factory manual for this - there are hydraulic test ports on the side of the tranny toward front of van

I will give this a shot. Any recommendations on a good place to get a complete shop manual? Should I get the shop manual, or the Haynes or Chilton tranny rebuild manual?

the $213 sounds like only the seal kit - I recently paid just over $300 Canadian for same for my intrepid. They don't sell a kit with all the clutch plates anymore - it used to be over $600 cdn. I spent another $300 or so on clutch plates and another $200 or so on other parts for a complete rebuild around $1000

Actually, the $213Cdn is the master kit with all the clutch packs and steel plates. The banner kit with only the clutch packs and no steels is $146, and the basic seal kit is even less than that. I found a distributor in the phone book here in Edmonton that has pretty good prices, and was pretty nice to a complete newby. Let me know if you ever need more parts and I'll look up the distributor for you. They also quoted me $117.66 for a torque converter and $111.82 for the solonoid pack(if needed). Filter is $9.27 and pump bushing is $0.96


What continues to baffle me is why it would go Bang and lose reverse gear if I was going in a constant speed in a straight line forward?? Did it slip out of 4th and engage in reverse at 100+ km/hr, completly thrashing my reverse? I wonder if the new clutch packs and steels would cover the trashed parts from the big Bang?

need to have or to make a few special tools - a mig welder is handy...very tricky job - don't underestimate the complexity

I must admit, I'm intimidated, but don't really have a choice I guess. Can't really do any harm on a vehicle that isn't worth much in its present condition, so I will give it a go. One step at a time, I will probably start with just trying to get the tranny out of the car first, then go from there. On an encouraging note, I read another Voyager post where a guy swapped out the tranny in a couple hours time and said it was not that hard (first time doing it apparently), and another guy apparently had his tranny stolen out of his van while parked at the Miami Airport long term parking (!!!) That said, it'll probably take me a week just to get it out, and with multiple calls to buddies to lend/bring over tools!

one more thing:
[quote]For my the intreprid I had to get the car about 30" off the garage floor - I welded extension angle iron on some floor jacks to almost 3 ft high. I think the van did not need to be as high - you can bring the bell our through the wheel well. [quote]
I was actually going to drive the van up onto ramps since I don't have jackstands that high. Guess that wouldn't work if I have to use the wheelwell to get the bell out huh?

[moparroy]

Originally Posted by typesix

When these 4 speed trannies first came out, Chrysler was boasting that these would be more reliable than the 3 speed because the 4 speeds had less moving parts due to electronics but you 're saying that the 4 speeds actually have more parts.

I never heard that - if there are "less moving parts" it could only be in the valve body which is partly replaced by the electronics and solenoids (which are also moving parts). The 4 spd has 5 clutches (vs 2 or 3 as I recall plus a simple band in the old 3 spd). I have never rebuilt a 3 spd - did some modifications and replaced a couple but never a rebuild - when I get to the 727 for my cuda I will rebuild it and see but I am sure it is simpler. For me the 4 speed has many advantages but I would need to be convinced it has less moving parts.

[moparroy]

You'll know if its the pump when you do your pressure measurements.

My experience with Chilton and Haynes has not been the best - I prefer the Chrysler manuals although they are not always perfect either. Never used an aftermarket tranny rebuild manual. For sources check: http://www.allpar.com/i/manuals.html

The distributor you are getting the kit from - is the kit a genuine Mopar kit? I wonder because I was told Chrysler does not sell a kit of all plates anymore - you buy them individually. I would recommend you buy a genuine Chrysler seal kit - otherwise I'd be concerned you might not get all the upgrades in the kit. Aftermarket clutch plates probably ok but my preference is for genuine chrysler parts - even if it costs a little more - at least when it comes to these trannys.

The Chrysler kit includes some clutch pistons and other pieces - hard to say if the kit you are looking at has the parts - I don't believe the L/R clutch piston is part of the kit. Additional parts are not expensive from what I have experienced. You may not know till you get it apart.

I recall I got the tranny out in one evening - putting it back in took better part of a day.

I forget exactly how I propped up the van but all I had then was 18" jack stands I think - I did not get higher ones till I did the intrepid - maybe I put some bricks or wooden blocks on top of the stands. Ramps won't work as you need to take out the drive shafts so the wheels come off first. I recall taking the tranny out through the wheel well but you can also take it out the front. The tranny is heavy - be careful - I could carry it around but I certainly could not bench press it into position. I got it out the first time balancing it on a larger floor jack - without an adaptor - I bought a Princess Auto adaptor to put it back in.

[moparroy]

You can also source factory manuals through the Chrylser web site - will take you to here:

https://techauthority.gltghosting.co...atalogId=10051


Other places on the internet too

[theFREAKnasty82]

moparroy, an A-727 tranny is a bullet-proof and easiest tranny to do. I rebuilt one out of an '85 Dodge Ram, took me 8 hours total between pulling it out of the truck, rebuilding, etc. The old 3 speeds only have 2 clutch packs, front clutch that applies in 3rd gear and reverse and the rear clutch that applies in all forward gears, an overrunning clutch, and two bands, one for second gear and the other for manual low. If you're gonna rebuild that tranny on your cuda, a novice can do it in less than a day.