new nitrous sytem

[moxion234]

hello all

well im new to this fourm and thought id post about somthing im working on. but first let me give you a little history. ive been into shade tree preformance mods and tuning for over 5 years now and upon installing a new zex nitrous kit on to my monte carlo i relized that the stock performance gains while impressive didnt justife the on going cost of filling my bottle ( 47 dollars for my 10lb bottle). so i invented a new way to do it.

ideal in a nut shell..


supercool atmospheric air into a liquid form and inject it into a motor same as nitrous.

how it was done..

over two years working on my own. i aquired a air compressor, a patent from the us patent office, cyrogenice dewar some copper tubing and a zex nitrous nozzle.
taking the copper tubing and shaping it into a coil so that both ends came out on the same end i placed the coil into the dewar which was filled with liquid nitrogen (avaliable at most welding supply stores for 1$ a liter) the copper acts as a heat sink and rapidly cools ambiet air into liquid form. liquid nitrogen is a -195 celsuis while oxygen liquifies at around -175 celsius. add a air compressor and about 50 psi and WHAM out comes liquid air. this was injected into my car and a freinds car on a dyno with a constant 9-12hp peak gain with no other tuning! (that means no added fuel ethier!!) now alot of pepole will want to post and say how liquid oxygen will make a motor explode and balh blah blah.. and yes pure liquid oxygen will make your motor explode, however liquidfied ambeit air will not!! i Know i have the dyno runs to prove it. any way im getting out of the military some will be low on funds to keep producing this prototype. any one interested in backing this project? also if you like this ideal tell everyone you know. i would hate to scrape this project just because i ran out of money.

the benifets
lasts way longer than nitrous ( about 3 weeks of constant use instead of 7 or 8 shots at the trackon a v8)

way cheaper (1$ a liter)

way safer ( no extrem pressure to deal with, a nitrous bottle in usually at 800 to 900 psi full!!)

all this for about a 50 dollar mark up on a regular zex kit.

any way i would like this forums thought questions and ideals on this. thanks

erik waters
fort walton beach florida
850-499-6416 feel free to call or email me if your interested in viewing or need more info

[Schister66]

All that seems to really do is imitate the effects of a turbo on your car. If you don't run extra fuel to that system, you will blow the engine since all you're really doing is leaning it out a lot.

[moxion234]

yes i am very aware that leaning out a motor will cause detonation please keep in mind that we are still in trail phase right now when more capital is aquired then this will be made as a full nitrous kit with tuning and added fuel. as far as it imatating a trubo you couldnt be much farther from the truth. this imitates a nitrous kit not a turbo the difference being old nitrous kits can only be used a certain number of times (usually 7 to 8 1/4 mile runs on a v8 10bl bottle) where as my kit can be used exactly the same as a nitrous kit but as many times as you want for about 3 weeks. same push button or toggle switch activating power on demand.

[moxion234]

ok i seem to be getting alot of usless flak in other forums (teamzx2.com) so let me try to make a few things clear

1 i AM NOT trying to sell this product, its still in devlopment phase, the only thing im looking for is techniacal feedback and finaical backing from a established company for further devlopment. please do not write about how this is a scam to make money as i have not tried to sell any one anything.

2. mabye i wasnt completly clear on some aspect of this project. first of all the dewar that contains the liquid nitrogen is open to the atmospher there is absolutly no psi build up form the liquid nitrogen the only pressure involved in this whole system is in the air compressor at 50 to 100 psi.
No liquid nitrogen ever enters the intake tract!! it is used strictly for cooling.

3 i am very aware that cooling air down 20 or 30 degrees is not enough to build respectable hp gains. please understand that this is not some chessy ice back or anything of that nature. this cools the ambiet air down to a liquid form a -165 to 175 dgress celsuis. there is just about as much oxygen in liquidfied air as in nirtous oxide the only differince between my product and nitrous from a chemical stand point is pretty much that the nitrogen and oxygen are not a combined partical.

4. there has been quite a bit of negative comments on the hose power gains made by pepole regarding my product. so to end this once and for all i would like to point out that WE ARE STILL IN DEVLOPMENT STAGES. i am well aware that paying an extra 50$ on top of a nirtous kit price for a 10 hp gain would be stupid. the point we were trying to make was that with out any tuning or fuel added we made a peak of 10 hp gain. if you were to take a nitrous oxide kit and jet it down to a point where you did not have to do any tuning or any fuel added you would get about the same horse power. since we have spikes of 15hp recored with out detonation the bottom line is this folks 8 to 12 hp with no tuning is pretty impressive if you think in terms of tuning and fuel enrichment. while i am very aware 8 hp is not much i also know that with tuning and fuel enrichment these hp gains would be on par with a base line nitrous kit.

5. as for cyro2 and there products i invite you to take a close look at there web site. while i agree that it is a very novel idea their product does nothing but cool incoming air for the intake. our product uses a LIQUID air injection about a 1000 times cooler and containg close to the same amout of oxygen and nitrogen that a nitrous kit has than what you could produce with cyro2 and it last a hell of alot longer. they have no prior art on us thier product isnt even close to the same. i know and can tell you this beacause i hold the patent for my sytem.

again soory for the 2 very long posts but we have been getting alot of pointless posts so i figured it was time to clarify

[CBFryman]

ROTFLMAO
ok ok ok
so let me get this straight.... you are talking about taking a coil, cooling air with liquid nitrogen.... and you think that at the rate at which the air is flowing into the engine and the ammount of air that will actually come in contact witht the coil is enough to coll the oxygen in the air down to a liquid state....
omg i am about to bust a gut....
my question is what is the nitros bottle for? im not completely clear on this. so you are compressing air in the nitros bottle then spraying it into the intake after it has pased through a coil which has liquid nitrogen flowing through it?
myfriend you are insane if you think that this is going to replace or even come near the efficency of nitrosoxide for mkaing extra power.

the ammount of oxygen doesnt change with tempature.... the dinsity does....you need to go learn about boyles law, charle's law, and the combined gas law.... then ocme and talk to me about this.....
also, what are you going to store the liquid nitrogen in?
liquid nitrogen doesnt just stay cold.....it is cold because it is decompressing....you would have to have a continuous flow in order to keep the coil cold which means you would either have your car smoking on hte outsie like a long nitros purge or you owuld pass out because it would leak on the inside untill there wasnt enough oxygen to keep you awake.
it is liquid because it was compressed to a very extreme pressure. the pressure is so great that after the heat that was concentrated because of the compression is disiapted it becomes liquid. and when you release it from compression it does the same thing Nitrosoxide does...it gets cold, just like any gas. it is so cold when it gets out that it stays liquid untill it has time to warm up. the same goes for dry ice. c02 is compressed so much that after the heat disipates and the pressure is released it stayes a solid untill it can heat up enough to become a gas agian. the only difference is that dryice never reaches a liquid state because the heating is so rapid.
Now if yo ureally want to make this useful... try compressing air to 1000-1500PSI.... letting it cool, then spraying it into the intake... then yo uwill have liquid air.... which will evaporate and in the process absorb the heat form the intake air untill all is equal.... cooler combusion and denser air will result....but the reaso why this isnt already being done is because for the effor you may as well be compressing N20 and spraying it into the engine.... colder intake AND extra oxygen....

[Sluttypatton]

Show me the Dyno runs.

[moxion234]

ok what is it with you guys? please for the love of god take the time too CARFULLY read all the posts before you post. first of all this is not a constant flow, this is used the same as a nitrous shot quick 30 second busts. to answer all your badly looked over questions. yes if you put a copper coil into liquid nitrogen let it cool for about 1-2 min and then put a little compressed air through the coil you get liquid fiieded air coming out the other end. since no one seems to take anything i say seriously i will be posting vidieos later this week. once again let me point out that some one did not read the post carfully or they would have saw that absoulutly NO nitrogen goes to the intake it is used strictly for cooling. if you read my first post you would see a parts listing. do you see anything about a nitrous bottle?? cause i dont!! and since i take the time to carfully read ALL the post let me quote you on a couple.

"the ammount of oxygen doesnt change with tempature.... the dinsity does....you need to go learn about boyles law, charle's law, and the combined gas law.... then ocme and talk to me about this....." so what your trying to tell me is that the amount of oxygen dosnt change in cooler air??? did you ride the short bus home on the last day of school?? it is a well know fact that cooler air holds more oxygen per cubic ft than warmer air thats why cold air intakes are made, thats why your car runs better on cold days.. so have you "busted your gut yet" or shall i continue? heres one other

" Now if yo ureally want to make this useful... try compressing air to 1000-1500PSI.... letting it cool, then spraying it into the intake... then yo uwill have liquid air.... " well way to go smart guy... funny thing is cooling air down with liquid nitrogen does exactly that turns AIR INTO LIQUID!!! and if you took that and put it into a container guess what the preesure would be.... yep you guessed it

schools out... like i said i will post the videos by this weekend so there is no more confusion or doubt

[Sluttypatton]

Cool, I look forward to it.

[benchtest]

Here are some random thoughts pertaining to your project.

1) Engines run on an air-fuel ratio. Regardless of air temp, you have to maintain the ratio. If the air is denser, then the fuel must be adjusted to match. I know you’re in the early stages, but you need to run under proper conditions to validate any claims. Otherwise, it could be assumed that you didn’t gain any power, rather, you were simply losing power before due to an over-rich condition. Also, what engines did you run this on?
2) Engines run on vaporized fuel. With the temps you are claiming for the liquid air at the nozzle, you’re going to condense/freeze the fuel, not vaporize it. Lack of vaporization is the reason we had chokes, and it’s the reason some racers using nitrous on alcohol motors actually run a second fuel tank with gasoline in it for the nitrous system. Nitrous vapor temps. are around -54 degrees. Gasoline’s flash point is around -40.
3) I’m not a chemist, but by definition wouldn’t N2O be 1/3rd oxygen? Air is around 20% oxygen. You said: “there is just about as much oxygen in liquidfied air as in nirtous oxide”. Am I not understanding, or is there a 50%+ difference?
4) Legal stuff: Not my area of expertise, but wouldn’t you need placarding and a haz-mat CDL to drive with liquid nitrogen on the vehicle? Also, there are many safety concerns with hauling liquid nitrogen in the event of an accident, or even a leak.
It’s an interesting idea. Please, do post the dyno runs, with vehicle and atmospheric data. Post the patent number also if you could.

Good luck

[moxion234]

finally a good post with real reasoning behide it. so let me try to answer you questions in order.
1. not to clear on this one... if i was running rich that would be extra fuel which would mean that the dyno run of 10 horse would be about all you would get out of this kit..... i wouldnt waste my time but i have no waay of proving differnt tell we do do the tuning...also the motor was 2001 3.8 monte carlo ss (non-supercharged) and the dyno is at the wheels not fly.
2. umm how to explaine this.. liquid oxygen has a very high expansion ratio so what comes out of the nozzle as liquid turns to dense vapor in the intake it self so no fuel freezing how ever it would be interesting on a carb..
3 ahhhh...ummm...yaaaa.. you got me there!!! my fault and soory for the confusion, my best explanation is that since the liquid nitrogen is already at its liquid temp not all the ambient nitrogen getts frozen resulting in a similar nitrogen/oxygen ratio.
4. this is esaily answered by a quick search on the web. you do not have to have specail markings or ratings to haul this stuff( i should know i have to haul it about once a week) you run into problems with d.o.t when you pressurize the containers but can still haul if equiped with a press relife valve same as nitrous. saftey kinda goes two ways would you rather have a extremly cold subsatnce that supports combustion (nitrous) or an extrmely cold subsatance that surpress it?? plus no 800-900 psi bomb in your trunk ethier (again nitrous)

[moxion234]

the dyno results can be found here. soory for linking but i cant figure out how to post them on here.

http://www.teamzx2.com/index.cfm?fa=...hread_id=84627

[Alastor187]

Originally Posted by benchtest

Here are some random thoughts pertaining to your project.
3) I’m not a chemist, but by definition wouldn’t N2O be 1/3rd oxygen? Air is around 20% oxygen. You said: “there is just about as much oxygen in liquidfied air as in nirtous oxide”. Am I not understanding, or is there a 50%+ difference?

The atomic weight of nitrogen is 14 kg/kmol and oxgen is 16 kg/kmol. So the molecular weight of N2O is going to be 44 kg/kmol ([2*14]+16). So by weight/mass N20 is 36.4% oxygen ([16/44]*100).

Originally Posted by moxion234

way safer ( no extrem pressure to deal with, a nitrous bottle in usually at 800 to 900 psi full!!

Originally Posted by moxion234

" Now if yo ureally want to make this useful... try compressing air to 1000-1500PSI.... letting it cool, then spraying it into the intake... then yo uwill have liquid air.... " well way to go smart guy... funny thing is cooling air down with liquid nitrogen does exactly that turns AIR INTO LIQUID!!! and if you took that and put it into a container guess what the preesure would be.... yep you guessed it

What are the tank pressures? You are cooling air to ~ -195°C and then placing the air in a sealed container. Is the container constantly cooled with the liquid nitrogen or does the air warm back up to ambient temperature?

[moxion234]

thank you for your post on the atomic weight but again please read ALL the posts. this product is not pressurized as of right now.

[noctorum]

I think it would be clearer if we had a diagram/schematic of your idea. Whats your patent #? They are all listed online now.

[CBFryman]

litte little boys....
Lets get a little technical shall we?

The way you stated it is that there is more oxygen per gram when it is x degrees than y degrees if y>x.
This isnt true. we all know density is changed, that isnt hard to figure out. but the ammount of oxygen in a given ammount of air isnt going to change.
that is my point, here is my case.

22l of oxygen (16grams or one Mol.) in 110l of air at STP.
lets lower tempature to 98 Kelvin assumeing pressure remains constant lets see what happens.
v[1]/t[1]=v[2]/t[2] when P is consant.
22l/273k=x/98
x=7.9l of oxygen. but it is still 16g of oxygen... still the same exacy ammount.

but lets say pressure is aloud to change but volume is constant (as is the case here)
P[1]V[1]/T[1]=P[2]V[2]/T[2]

760mmHg 22l/273k= x 22l/98

272.8mmHg.... fyi that is 0.36atm or 5.27psi that is a HUGE pressure drop... but there is still the same ammount of oxygen. what you will be doing when you do this is causing manifold pressure to drop while keeping the moles of oxygen/litre the same.
Granted it will give a small HP increase you will not see the major increase of power like you will with nitros oxide because nitros oxide is just as cold but it contains more oxygen/litre than air.



that is one funky second run.
now apologise about the short bus thing or i will have a feild day since i have proven to you that i am not just some smart ass wanting to bash someone for the hell of it. I never said it wouldnt increase power. but it is in no way going to compeate with nitrosoxide. but some schmatics would be nice. if you dont know how to post pics E-mail them to [email protected] and i will post them for you.

over two years working on my own. i aquired a air compressor, a patent from the us patent office, cyrogenice dewar some copper tubing and a zex nitrous nozzle.

sorry i read it wrong i though it said bottle.....