Ls/Vtec torbo or ITR turbo

[xixtony]

Hey i got a 1993 civichatch Si and i need more power.I was thinking of Ls/Vtec or a ITR engine waht do u guys think.$$$$ and gas doesnt matter more power and torque the better

[Ace$nyper]

I was thinking to hit that SEARCH button its mad fast yo.

[Schister66]

LS Vtec resleeved and pushin 60 psi on a T4 super 60 competition turbo... 1500 hp and 1 mpg if you're lucky....do a search

[S13wanabe]

Do more research. If you want NA then get the ITR. If you want forced induction then get a GSR. Don't bother with the LS/Vtec. They are more trouble then they are worth. I have one. If you want really good NA power then do a B20/Vtec. That one is worth the trouble.

[civickiller]

if you build it right, you wont have any trouble with your lsvtec. and you can make more power than an itr is built right.

i say lsvtec, but no half assing

[S13wanabe]

Since you don't have an LS motor in your car stock, the LS/Vtec is more hastle than it's worth. You will need to buy an LS motor, B16 or B18 head, and b-series trannie. An LS trannie is ideal for turbo. Or you can just get a GSR and make it easy on yourself. I'm not saying the LS/Vtec is a problematic motor, it's just a hastle to put together. Plus in California you can get a GSR motor to pass smog legally but not an LS/Vtec. I love my LS/Vtec, but if I could go back and do it all over, I would put an ITR motor in. I'm an NA guy. And if I could afford it a K-series Type-R motor would be the best possible NA motor. Too expensive though.

[turboEKhatch]

Originally Posted by S13wanabe

An LS trannie is ideal for turbo.

Wrong!

Shorter gearing means quicker acceleration. Doesn't matter if you're turbocharged or naturally aspirated. Think about it, longer gears means you drop more RPM's after you shift. When you shift you want to fall right back into the meat of your powerband, you don't want to be falling out of boost. See This Post

Originally Posted by boosted hybrid

Gear ratios are merely a way to trade torque for rpm. With a higher numerical gear ratio, you are putting more rpm at the wheel. With closer gear ratios, you are able to stay at a higher rpm in between shift points. Something like the LS transmissions are suited more towards the broad torque curve/low reving LS engine. It keeps you in the peak torque area in between shifts. The ITR/SI/GSR transmissions keep the rpm's built up in between shifts, to stay in the more peaky powerband.

Having said that, for the track the itr/si tranny is the best hands down. Most high whp turbo engines are operating between 5.5-9k, and having their shift points in between. In combination with a tall slick size (24.5"+), and the high shift point (8.5-9k), you are able to keep the engine operating within the optimum torque curve.

With the LS transmission, between shifts it would possibly drop you out of the optimal powerband and therefore make you slower. Gearing simply put allows you to stay in the powerband of your engine in between shifts.

The myth that you stay in gear longer with the LS transmission makes you faster is purely false. Think about that statement for a second. Acceleration is the measure of velocity over a unit time. Watching the rpms climb on the tach during a 3rd/4th gear pull, they would be climbing slower than with the si/itr tranny. Looking at the definition of acceleration as a measure of velocity over a unit time, the engine would be getting to the same velocity over a slower time lapse. This would yield slower acceleration, and simply put make you slower.

Having said that, the gsr transmission is probably the best balance of a street/strip transmission. The gearing is a little less aggressive as the itr/si transmissions, which will yield a little more traction. For all out acceleration si/itr tranny wins hands down. For a slower car, go with the LS transmission.

[S13wanabe]

I'll go with what the professional shops and racers are going with. Which is the LS trannie. The truth of the matter is the gearing on the LS trannie isn't much longer than the GSR. You stay in boost when you shift. It also takes more advantage of the boost by being in boost longer. Also if you look at time slips from guys with GSR or B16 trannies with turbos they will usually be pretty bad, or a lot worse than what the car is capable of because of the traction issues. Traction is the biggest enemy in a turbo FWD car. My Friend makes 278whp in a turbo GSR hatch and can't hook up until half way thru 3rd. So don't try to tell me that longer gears wouldn't help him. Anyway point made.

[turboEKhatch]

Originally Posted by S13wanabe

I'll go with what the professional shops and racers are going with. Which is the LS trannie. The truth of the matter is the gearing on the LS trannie isn't much longer than the GSR. You stay in boost when you shift. It also takes more advantage of the boost by being in boost longer. Also if you look at time slips from guys with GSR or B16 trannies with turbos they will usually be pretty bad, or a lot worse than what the car is capable of because of the traction issues. Traction is the biggest enemy in a turbo FWD car. My Friend makes 278whp in a turbo GSR hatch and can't hook up until half way thru 3rd. So don't try to tell me that longer gears wouldn't help him. Anyway point made.

lol, are you kidding? In fourth gear with an LS you're doing 30 MPH more than with a GSR. SHOW ME some shops, or beter yet, racers that recommend an LS transmission over a GSR, especially if it ever sees the track. 24.5" slicks plus an LS trans means you're doing 150 MPH in fourth gear with an 8500 redline, which is totally counter productive to acceleration.

Takes advantage of being in boost longer is a god damn crock of shit. Try reading that post. He has an engineering degree, and has tuned DOZENS of very fast turbo hondas. He has his own dyno, and I'd consider him a much better source that the crap you've heard all over the internet about it. Do you believe that VTEC is no good for turbos, and that the rod/stroke ratio of an LS motor makes it a crappy choice for a street motor? Earl Laskey agrees that an LS trans is not the right choice for a street turbo car.

Go find me some real racers or a shop that would recommend an LS transmission when it isn't on an LS motor. Excluding some hokey ass shop that doesn't do shit for turbo hondas, nobody will recommend you an LS trans.

Laskey? Nope.
Golden Eagle? Nope.
Titan? Nope.
Velocity/VSV Performance? Nope.
InlinePro? Nope.

NONE of those shops will recommend you an LS transmission? Why? Because having the gearing to go 142 in fourth gear on a typical 205/50/15 tire is silly, and is not a good use of power. Idealy you want to be hitting the traps right around redline at the top of fourth. Where do you sit at the end of fourth at 8500? 120 MPH, fairly typical for a boosted honda with a vtec b-series motor on street tires. Knock that up to 24.5" slicks, and you're hitting the traps at 127 MPH @ 8500 RPM's, which is good for a bit higher boost and race gas. I'd love to hear why you think hitting the traps at under 7 grand with an LS trans on slicks is a good idea though, I'm ALL ears.

And if your friend can't get traction till third with under 300 WHP with his GSR, there's more at fault than his transmission. It's called he doesn't know how to drive, paied up with he needs better tires.

[S13wanabe]

I only talk through experience. And you had better watch how you talk to people. If you're running huge slicks it's a completely different story. Full race cars are a different story. This thread has been about a daily driven street car. No guys pushing 250+whp are getting traction in first or second. All the people I know race at the tracks whenevr they get the chances to. I knew a guy who raced an all-motor CRX who recomended an LS trannie for a turbo honda for the street. I am an NA guy and have a b16 trannie on an LS/Vtec, and I'm rebuilding another B16 trannie with closer gearing. I'm sure anyone on this forum who knows me will tell you I'm credible. And yes, the LS takes more advantage of the boost. And Vtec with a turbo is not bad. I'm not an idiot. My friend can drive, but he has an open diff. and crappy tires. After he gets better tires and an LSD he will still not get traction in first and probably most of second. Considering drag racing in won or lost at the launch, I would say that traction is pretty important. Don't try to make me out to be an idiot. I am very into racing, I own several cars, and am building my Civic to be a track car. I am also attending racing school in 2-3 months and hope to get into competitive racing. So you can see I'm into it a little.

[civickiller]

Originally Posted by turboEKhatch

lol, are you kidding? In fourth gear with an LS you're doing 30 MPH more than with a GSR. SHOW ME some shops, or beter yet, racers that recommend an LS transmission over a GSR, especially if it ever sees the track. 24.5" slicks plus an LS trans means you're doing 150 MPH in fourth gear with an 8500 redline, which is totally counter productive to acceleration.

Takes advantage of being in boost longer is a god damn crock of shit. Try reading that post. He has an engineering degree, and has tuned DOZENS of very fast turbo hondas. He has his own dyno, and I'd consider him a much better source that the crap you've heard all over the internet about it. Do you believe that VTEC is no good for turbos, and that the rod/stroke ratio of an LS motor makes it a crappy choice for a street motor? Earl Laskey agrees that an LS trans is not the right choice for a street turbo car.

Go find me some real racers or a shop that would recommend an LS transmission when it isn't on an LS motor. Excluding some hokey ass shop that doesn't do shit for turbo hondas, nobody will recommend you an LS trans.

Laskey? Nope.
Golden Eagle? Nope.
Titan? Nope.
Velocity/VSV Performance? Nope.
InlinePro? Nope.

NONE of those shops will recommend you an LS transmission? Why? Because having the gearing to go 142 in fourth gear on a typical 205/50/15 tire is silly, and is not a good use of power. Idealy you want to be hitting the traps right around redline at the top of fourth. Where do you sit at the end of fourth at 8500? 120 MPH, fairly typical for a boosted honda with a vtec b-series motor on street tires. Knock that up to 24.5" slicks, and you're hitting the traps at 127 MPH @ 8500 RPM's, which is good for a bit higher boost and race gas. I'd love to hear why you think hitting the traps at under 7 grand with an LS trans on slicks is a good idea though, I'm ALL ears.

And if your friend can't get traction till third with under 300 WHP with his GSR, there's more at fault than his transmission. It's called he doesn't know how to drive, paied up with he needs better tires.

amen

[civickiller]

s13wanabe, just because your building all this stuff, doesnt mean its the best setup.

why dont any of the pros use ls trannies, because its too long. now a ls tranny is good if your doing alot of highway driving and dont want to be at 5k at 65mph on the highways or whatevers, but thats the only thing the ls tranny is good for. oh its also good if your racing an ls motor that only revs to 7k.

now who am i going to believe, some noname backyard guy with his all motor crx, or all the pros that runs 9s all day long. your choice

[S13wanabe]

It's comparing apples to oranges. Professional built race cars are a lot different than street cars. But hey, you believe what you want. I've gotten professional advice, and have a ton of second hand experience from my friends cars. At the track the high power turbo hondas, that are street cars, are getting better times with LS trannies then Vtec trannies. Whatever though. I've lost interest now, I'm an NA guy anyway.

[civickiller]

you took professional advice, what can be more professional than professional race car drivers.

also cars that come with a turbo have really short trannies, do car companies not know what they are talking about either ?

[kicker1_solo]

Originally Posted by S13wanabe

I've gotten professional advice, and have a ton of second hand experience from my friends cars.

Maybe you should get some professional advice on how to better make your LS/VTEC if you're having so many problems with it. The LS/VTEC is an amazing set up and actually isn't that problematic.


And for the original topic, I would personally go with LS/VTEC turbo over the ITR turbo. There's just something about the LS block that I like when we're talking about FI.