Think YOU Have Problems?

[HeadlessHorseman]

I came across this thread while Googling today and was horrified to find that many of the problems reported on this board are also reported by brand new owners of brand new Caravans...

http://www.autobytel.com/content/res...make_vch/Dodge

like this one...

http://www.autobytel.com/content/res...el_vch/Caravan

and a word to the wise about the '05...

http://www.autobytel.com/content/res...el_vch/Caravan

Sheesh.

Bad reviews...
http://www.carreview.com/Minivans/Do...x.aspx#reviews

More gems, with a Class Action Lawsuit named...
http://www.cartrackers.com/Forums/live/Chrysler/

Hey, at least, we're not alone.

[Mrbizness1]

Every mfg has some hidden warranties, Some Toyota motors have sludge problems, Honda minivans have trans problems. The neon head gasket problems have been around for a few years, A friend had payed to have hers fixed by a private mechanic at 62k wrote Chrysler a letter and got full reinbursement, but you can't discover the problem at 60k and wait till over 100k and expect to get the mfg to pay for it, I wonder what the rest of the car looked like. While I feel for the the guy with the 96 van, he bought a 8 year old vehicle with over a 100k miles who knows how this vehicle was serviced before he got it.
You need to check the options listed on any vehicle before you buy it.
If you check the Odyssey club website you will find plenty of complaints there also, most owners that are satisfied with their vehicles never write about them.


98 Gcvan 94k bought new 12/97
Problems to date: battery at 6 months old, 2 fan relays,
2 license plate light bulbs, frnt brakes at 42k, 86k with rotors
rear brakes at 75k, trans serviced by dealer every 40k

[HeadlessHorseman]

Originally Posted by Mrbizness1

... most owners that are satisfied with their vehicles never write about them.

I am sure that is true. I would also bet that there are many owners who do not post their problems as well. Here's the thing... these problem boards are great because you can get some good advice and also see trends in reliability.

Like transmission, paint and electrical problems... one does not need to come to this board to learn about problems with Chrysler products... all one must do is hang out in a dealer's waiting room, talk to customers at the parts counter, strike up conversations with new car shoppers in the lot or share information with fellow mini-van owners in the neighborhood (ALL of which I have done).

What bothers me MOST of all about this is the fact that many people seem to be accepting all of these problems as "normal" by citing similar Ford's, GM's and other manufacturer's problems. Wow. This is the product of the same corporate culture that sent customers to Japan in droves back in the 70's and 80's. It's also the main reason why South Korea has become a formidable force in the automotive industry.

In England, they refer to Lucas Electronics (automotive & motorcycle) as the "Prince of Darkness" in reference to spotty reliability. This reminds me of many current Chrysler woes. Chrysler no longer enjoys the dominant position in the mini-van market it occupied for several reasons - one of which, in my opinion, appears to be a declining grip on quality control.

[dholly]

Originally Posted by HeadlessHorseman

Chrysler no longer enjoys the dominant position in the mini-van market it occupied for several reasons - one of which, in my opinion, appears to be a declining grip on quality control.

Spout off your opinion if you wish but, a word to the wise, at least get your facts straight. Otherwise it ruins your credibility and simply sounds as if you have a large axe to grind.

Minivans exploded onto the market in 1983 and in just a decade had surpassed the 1-million sales mark. Minivan sales peaked in 2000 and for the past decade have hung in a consistent range averaging about 1.2 million units - a couple hundred thousand units less than peak levels. Since 2000, total minivan sales have declined, while sport/utility sales have exploded.

Chrysler's Dodge Caravan, the segment leader, suffered quality problems when the fourth-generation model launched in 2000. With the 2005 model introduction, Chrysler Group minivan sales improved 29 percent in November '04, continuing to solidify its position as industry leader in the minivan segment. Led by models with Stow 'n Go seating, Dodge Caravan, the industry minivan leader, posted sales of 15,452 units, an increase of 14 percent, while Chrysler Town & Country sales surged 55 percent to 11,985 units.

And, really, I laughed my azz off reading some of those 'reviews'. Some numbskull buys a new van without a thorough understanding of it's features -or even looking at the sticker- and then blames somebody else when it wasn't what he expected? Or, someone buys a used vehicle in a private party transaction without bothering to have it checked first by a qualified mechanic and is ticked because they bot a problem? Get real.

[HeadlessHorseman]

Originally Posted by dholly

Spout off your opinion if you wish but, a word to the wise, at least get your facts straight. Otherwise it ruins your credibility and simply sounds as if you have a large axe to grind.

"Balanced" facts speak louder than opinion, my fellow Chrysler owner, and clearly, the facts you quoted do NOT show the whole picture. Have you heard of the phrase "flash in the pan?" That phrase pretty much sums up the numbers you quoted. While I do NOT want to start a big fight here, I have a few "balanced" facts for you to file.

It's time to embrace the horror. Read 'em and weep (I am)...

Of the domestics, Chrysler, which defined the minivan segment with the introduction of the Plymouth Voyager and Dodge Caravan in the early '80s has seen its share of the segment drop from about 50 percent less than a decade ago to 33.8 percent this year.

What I meant by "dominant" was a 50% or better market share.

In fairness though, Chrysler isn't alone... Ford lost 19 points of minivan market share between 1995 and last year, as the Ford Aerostar disappeared and Mercury Villager phased out. The remarkable point here is that Chrysler managed to lose nearly as much market share as Ford over the past 10 years... and Chrysler managed to lose it without the massive model phase-out that Ford employed.

Despite rolling out two new models for 2004 -- the Ford Freestar and the Mercury Monterey -- Ford's minivan share remains the lowest of the domestics, at just 11.3 percent. GM is in second place with 14.9 percent.


Toyota and Honda are nipping at GM's heels, with 2004 market shares of 14.4 percent and 13.2 percent respectively, and Honda stands to gain in the coming year with the introduction of the redesigned 2005 Odyssey.

What will happen with Nissan is anyone's guess. One thing is for sure. Nissan's all-new Quest is likely to shrink U.S. minivan market share even further - I believe Chrysler stands to (and will) lose the most.

Kia, a South Korean automaker, is now a subsidiary of Hyundai, whose quality has improved dramatically over the past decade. Kia has a 5.8 market share already with the Sedona, which is ahead of Nissan's 4.3 percent and Mazda's 2.3 percent.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
You need to ask yourself this question dholly: "If Chrysler built and backed the best minivan on the market, why then is Chrysler powerless to stop their declining market share?"
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

P.S. I do have an axe to grind and I don't think that's a bad thing. It starts with over $29,000 I spent for my new GC, over $10,000 in repairs, a $2,600 "Bumper-to-Bumper Warranty that turned out NOT to be bumper-to-bumper and over $4,000 in repairs I have elected NOT to do because they are not safety related.

Just my

[Mrbizness1]

I am curious, what year van you have, how many miles you drove it, and what kind of repairs you needed that cost over $10,000, plus another $4000.00 for what kind of other repairs that are needed. Also why did your warranty cost so much? The Chrysler bumper to bumper warranty I bought for a 98 van, 7/70k miles costs me about $700.00. ( I never used it).
You read alot about Chrysler problems, but they also have the most vans on the road since the mid 80's, they are all over the place. Toyota and Honda make good cars, but they have also had problems as I previously mentioned.
I worked in the auto industry from 78 till 95 in sales and service. Despite what you read and hear import cars have problems also and there service departments are not full of Maytag repairmen.

[dholly]

Originally Posted by HeadlessHorseman

What I meant by "dominant" was a 50% or better market share.

Um, just what exactly is a "balanced fact"? A fact is a fact is a fact whether you like it or not. I never said they weren't losing market share, only that they remain the leader. Something, once again, that is irrefutable fact and has nothing to do with my opinion. And, sorry pal, my bad. I always thought 'dominant' meant the 'most prominant', while 50% or more was referred to as the majority. Regardless, that Chrysler's market share percentage of the overall minivan market has dropped as other manufacturers have entered the segment is simple math. But, it certainly isn't entirely related to loyalty defections due to quality. I must say, your personal experience does beg the question: Why didn't you return/dump your lemon? Lol, what are you, a glutton for punishment?

[HeadlessHorseman]

Originally Posted by dholly

Um, just what exactly is a "balanced fact"? ... I must say, your personal experience does beg the question: Why didn't you return/dump your lemon? Lol, what are you, a glutton for punishment?

First of all, I want to apologize for not doing a good job of making my point in my original post. Secondly, your friendship on this board is worth infinitely more to me than arguing semantics. Thirdly, I don't think I own a lemon - everyone I know who owns a Caravan/Voyager/T&C has told me that my transmission problems "are normal" - the fact that I got 111,000 on my first tranny is a "miracle" and "more of a testament to my driving and maintenance habits than Chrysler engineering." And lastly, I *have been* a glutton for punishment, but next year, I may be a glutton with some other make and model of minivan. Cheers, dholly!

[HeadlessHorseman]

Originally Posted by Mrbizness1

I am curious, what year van you have, how many miles you drove it, and what kind of repairs you needed that cost over $10,000, plus another $4000.00 for what kind of other repairs that are needed. Also why did your warranty cost so much? The Chrysler bumper to bumper warranty I bought for a 98 van, 7/70k miles costs me about $700.00. ( I never used it). You read alot about Chrysler problems, but they also have the most vans on the road since the mid 80's, they are all over the place. Toyota and Honda make good cars, but they have also had problems as I previously mentioned. I worked in the auto industry from 78 till 95 in sales and service. Despite what you read and hear import cars have problems also and there service departments are not full of Maytag repairmen.

Here ya go...

1996 Grand Caravan LE, Touring Package, Towing Package w/Heavy-Duty Suspension, Infinity-10 Premium Sound System, 3.8L V-6, 4-Speed Auto, $29,500 MSRP; Current mileage: nearly 204,000. 7year/100,000 mile Extended "Bumper-to-Bumper" Warranty: $2,600 - I don't know why it cost this much, I only know that it did and I have a receipt for it.

Maintenance Background ...

Oil Changed (GTX every time, GTX High-Mileage since 100K) every 2,500-3,500 miles without fail - Expressway has always handled this.

Cooling system maintenance handled according to Expressway schedule without fail - NEVER had an overheating problem.

Transmission flushed and fluid replaced every 13,000-15,000 without fail except for the times a tranny blew up and I got new fluid "for free" ) - dealer has always handled this.

Replacement "Remanufactured" trannys ALWAYS done by my dealer.

Repairs I paid for, out of pocket...

First tranny blew at 111,000 cost to replace: $2,100
Second tranny blew 158,000 cost to replace: $2,400
Third tranny blew at 201,000 cost to replace: $2,700 (axel also replaced)
Replace Parking Brake broken FOUR times, THREE times out of warranty: $300
Repair Door Locks THREE times, replace "servos" out of warranty: $700
Replace misc broken interior plastic parts (EXCLUDED in "Bumper-to-Bumper"): $100
Dealer-installed Remote Security System that never worked: $350
Dealer-installed PIAA fog light system that failed out of warranty: $275
Troubleshoot and repair interior and dashboard lighting system: $450
Troubleshoot and repair fuel pump and related problems: $375
Replace Blower Motor THREE times: $175x2 (by dealer) + $75 (did this one myself along with Resistor Block and Blower Motor Relay): $450 total

These are the "big ticket" items that add up to $10,200 in repairs. There are about a dozen more smaller items that put my total repair costs closer to the $12,000 mark. However, I do not include stuff like rotors, drums, brakes, struts, shocks, water pump, idler pulley and other incidentals that I expect to wear out. If I were to add that kind of stuff, I'm guessing I would probably be close to $14,000 in repair costs over nearly 9 years... I refuse to believe this is "normal."

Repairs I have elected NOT to do (non-safety related)...

Replace driver's side power seat: $999 (dealer quote)
Replace CD Head Unit: cost to replace: $375 (dealer quote)
Repair/Replace AC/Heater lines to rear system & core: $1,200 (dealer quote)
Repair/replace rear windshield washer unit: $200 (dealer quote)
Repaint roof-rack (paint coming off): $350 (dealer quote)
Repaint rear deck and quarters: $2,000+ (dealer quote)

OK, so I lied... it isn't $4,000 in needed repairs, it's over $5,000 in needed repairs. You get the point.

NOTE: I have spoken to several mechanics and transmission guys over the years and they ALL tell me that Chrysler trannys are notorious for blowing up - you're "lucky" if you get 70,000 miles or 3 years, whichever comes first. One transmission guy told me "Thanks to Chrysler alone, I put my two girls through college."

And yes, I agree that there are "a lot of Caravans on the road." But that is not the same as "a lot of Caravans still on the road." This begs the question "What percentage of Caravans/Voyagers/T&Cs ever sold are still on the road today?" I would love to know the answer to this question. I would also like to know how this compares to the percentages of other manufacturers.

[dholly]

Gad, cheers to you for putting up with all that!

I would have packed my bags long ago. I took a '96 Grand ES about 125k over 8 years before I got nervous enough to move on. In that time I replaced the tranny once and that was it aside from brakes/rotors. When I let it go, it had a small exhaust leak in the muffler and a blown blower motor resistor (I think - HIGH heat only). The big reason I got rid of it was because the driver side shock tower mount was showing enough rust as to make me believe that was not going to be repairable after another year of salty upstate NY winters. I'm not sure what life you expect out of your vehicles, but that you got over 200k on yours in CT is pretty good if your state uses salt vs. sand. And, it does sound as if many of the non-tranny repairs came later in your vehicle life. Not defending the manufacturer here, I agree you've had more than enough problems to justify your ire.

[HeadlessHorseman]

I have never replaced or repaired ANY part of my GC exhaust system - even the Toyotas (2 Corollas, 1 Celica and 1 LE Van) I have owned cannot make this claim. In spite of the paint peeling off my GC, I have ZERO outer body rust-through. All of my Toyotas were beginning to rust out LONG before the 9 year mark, around 5 or 6 six years. It is fair to say that Dodge did a FAR better job than Toyota did with their exhaust system and body protection.

Moreover, I have NEVER had ANY problem with my Mopar motor, aside from a water pump (once) and an idler pulley (once) - things I expect to wear out. I have NEVER replaced the original Dodge alternator (how about that?!?). I can honestly say that my 3.8L V6 is as good as or BETTER than anything I EVER bought from Japan - EVERY Toyota I have owned blew its head gasket BEFORE 150,000 miles; both of my Corollas blew theirs before 100,000 miles. Now, if changing out those back three spark plugs in my GC were easier!

This is the thing dholly, There ARE a lot of things I absolutely LOVE about my GC and these are the reasons I continue, even to this day, to hold out hope that I am just one more engineering revision away from transmission Nirvana. And AC/Heater Blower Motor Nirvana. And Parking Brake Nirvana. And many other Nirvanas. I have REASON to hold out... a lot of the stuff I paid to replace in the early days STILL hasn't broken again... like the doorlocks, the CD storage door and more.

You have NO idea how much I want to love my GC. The fact is, OVER half the time, I do!

BTW, the term "Gad" is something I heard a lot living in Ohio. Are you from the midwest?

[HeadlessHorseman]

P.S. to dholly...

Sounds like your GC ES experience was on par with my GC LE, at least transmission-wise. Here in Connecticut, they use salt *and* sand, which makes it even more remarkable that I have ZERO outer body rust-through. The only *major* problem I have with my GC LE is that I have gone through more transmissions than I think is reasonable.

Transmissions alone represent nearly $8,000 of my $14,000 or so total repair bills over nearly 9 years. In 32 years of driving and after owning a dozen or so vehicles, the FIRST, SECOND and THIRD transmission that ever blew up on me were ALL in my GC LE. Know wutta mean, Vern?

[HiRez_L]

Originally Posted by HeadlessHorseman

Have you heard of the phrase "flash in the pan?" That phrase pretty much sums up the numbers you quoted.

I dunno . . . I'd hardly call 21 years of market segment dominance a flash in the pan . . .
While it is painfully obvious to any of us who own them that these minivans aren't perfect, I think they're pretty good.

[jagplates]

Originally Posted by HeadlessHorseman

Moreover, I have NEVER had ANY problem with my Mopar motor, aside from a water pump (once) and an idler pulley (once) - things I expect to wear out. I have NEVER replaced the original Dodge alternator (how about that?!?). I can honestly say that my 3.8L V6 is as good as or BETTER than anything I EVER bought from Japan - EVERY Toyota I have owned blew its head gasket BEFORE 150,000 miles; both of my Corollas blew theirs before 100,000 miles. Now, if changing out those back three spark plugs in my GC were easier!

The fact that you have 204,000 miles on your car speaks volumes about it. Most cars are in the junk yard before that. If you take the $8,000 you spent on transmissions out of the picture, your repair costs for this car were a bit less than 3 cent per miles. I was going to say that I suspect that all the blown head gaskets I see on minivans are the result of owners never changing coolant, and obviously you change yours, but then you said that your Toyotas all had head gasket failure by 150,000 miles.

When I said that transmission failure on American minivans was common, that's not the same as saying that it's normal. Normal implies proper operation. Breaking isn't proper operation. Although, maybe it is normal... How long does an automatic transmission typically last? 100,000 to 150,000? Then complicate it by making it a transaxle instead of a transmission, maybe it IS going to break sooner. But it certainly looks like there is a problem with Ford, GM and Chrysler transaxles. Especially Chrysler. Maybe now that Mercedes owns them, things will get better.

When I bought my '97 bare-bones Voyager last spring, I went looking for some in wrecking yards to do some upgrades. There were some 96 - 2000 to be found, but not a lot. At least here in California, people keep fixing them. I guess it comes down to $3,000 for a trans is less than $30,000 for a new van. (That was certainly the decision of a friend with a 97 Chevy Venture. They just paid $2,700 just to replace a head gasket at 98,000 after the trans went at 70,000. AND they hate the van. At least people with Chysler vans seem to like the vans, even if they hate the problems.)

I only wish I could have gotten a stick shift. This is my first automatic transaxle. My last two front wheel drives have been 5 speeds, and almost all the rear wheel drives I have owned have been five speed. But they don't make stickshift minivans for a good reason: Besides me and about 3 other people on the planet, who are they going to sell them to?

[HeadlessHorseman]

Originally Posted by HiRez_L

I dunno . . . I'd hardly call 21 years of market segment dominance a flash in the pan . . . While it is painfully obvious to any of us who own them that these minivans aren't perfect, I think they're pretty good.

Nobody can argue against Dodge as the minivan industry leader and keep a straight face. I was really referring to any momentary spikes in Dodge's sales figures. A 1.5% increase over sales last year is certainly encouraging but it is less impressive when we go back a few years more and find that this new sales figure is actually less than it was back in "the good old days" of the mid-80's through mid-90's.

Nobody (except Chrysler's competitor's and their shareholders) want to see Chrysler's market share dwindle. I know I don't. And believe me, I know as well as anyone that nothing is perfect. I am not asking for that. I think we can all agree that Chrysler has room to improve the quality of their transmissions... that's all I'm saying.