Civic Type R -v- Golf Mk5 GTi

[finally_retired]

For a while now, the Civic Type R has held the crown as the ultimate hot hatch. Chalangers have included the Megane Sport 225, Leon Cupra R, and Focus RS. Nothing has toppled it, and rightly so. As an all rounder, taking into consideration performance, practicality, economy and cost... the civic was well ahead of the crowd.

Now though, VW have launched the much anticipated new Golf GTi. Within a week, It was named Car of the year by the BBC's top gear... and now its in the showroom and up for test drives. I drove it recently and was amazed by it. Its built as solidly as any other VW, which is to be expected, but long gone is the feeling of overweight, lifelessness that hindered the Mk 4. Its a Joy to drive, with handeling that will leave you quite gob smacked, and blistering acceloration thanks to its 2.0 litre Turbo. Unlike the old 1.8T, the new unit suffers no turbo lag at all, with smooth power delivery ond a raspy exhaust note. Its just as practical as any other golf in the range, and is available with all manner of creature comforts unlike the rather basic Civic.

The civic does have the slight performance advantage, and is certainly easier on the wallet, but the golf is the better drivers car. It somehow manages to feel totally focused and honed, while retaining the qualities of any other modern hatchback.

That is just my oppinion. What are your thoughts on them?

[Jimster]

I think this one is very close. Firstly the new 2.0 FSI Turbo from the VAG is an awesome engine, I will certainly vouch for no turbo lag, but that said the K20A that the Civic uses is still an extremely impressive engine as well and the Civic has a small advantage in the 0-60mph sprint, but not nearly as much it had on a Mk IV 1.8T.

Handling? Well the Civic's switch to Mac Struts was both good and bad. The good bit is that it still handles like a sports car, in fact is the best FWD Honda ever made in terms of handling. However the ride quality is shocking, even the "luxury" Civic 5 doors are worse than my basic 1995 1.4 Civic, which really says something. The Golf with it's new Multilink rear end however, has very precise handling and lets you know when it wants no more in a rather orthodox fashion. The quality of ride is also impressive.

Everything else? Well the Golf is better equipped than the Civic, it is more comfortable, it is arguably better built and better looking (The Civic having got one of the worst ever facelifts a year ago)


I think it's safe to say the Civic Type R has lost it's crown to the successor of the original hot hatch

[DinanM3_S2]

I can't be 100% sure, but I'd argue that the GTi will also be the better car to modify. The 1.8t engine from the Mk.4 could produce around 220hp with a chip from Neuspeed, REVO, or the others. I would expect about the same difference from the new 2.0t. I know little about modifying Civics, but turbo cars are generally easier to tune then n/a cars. I saw the torque curve of the GTi in either EVO or Car (I always confuse the two) and I was very impressed. GTi 2.0t easily.

[jcsaleen]

If your gonna get a hatch dont get a honda! Hmm Id say the gold but if you really wated a good hatch go with the impreza I went in 1 when I went vermont they handle very nice wether in rain sleet snow or regual cruising. Also you can cram way more power in an impreza then a civic.

[crayzayjay]

Originally Posted by jcsaleen

If your gonna get a hatch dont get a honda! Hmm Id say the gold but if you really wated a good hatch go with the impreza I went in 1 when I went vermont they handle very nice wether in rain sleet snow or regual cruising. Also you can cram way more power in an impreza then a civic.

Saleen, 1) please don't go off-topic, and 2) justify your opinion.

"if your gonna get a hatch dont get a Honda"
Why?

[finally_retired]

Originally Posted by jcsaleen

If your gonna get a hatch dont get a honda! Hmm Id say the gold but if you really wated a good hatch go with the impreza I went in 1 when I went vermont they handle very nice wether in rain sleet snow or regual cruising. Also you can cram way more power in an impreza then a civic.

Firstly, I don't know what the situation is in the states, but Impreza's suffer from a bit of an image problem in the UK, mainly because the people that generally drive them behave like they are on a rally track all of the time. Cars such as the Golf GTi, Meganne225, S3, and Civic R appeal to a more "civilised" style of driving for the most part but the performance to tare up the tarmac if you want to.

Secondly, the performance Impreza's are much more expensive that either the GTi or Type R, and neither is it a hatch back. As far as I'm aware, the Suberu is only available as saloon and estate...

...so please, leave the suberu out of this comparison. I did so for a reason.

[drunken monkey]

"Cars such as the Golf GTi, Meganne225, S3, and Civic R appeal to a more "civilised" style of driving for the most part... "

this very much depends on where you live.
round these parts, you can pretty much be gauranteed that the chinese/oriental guy behind the wheel of the civic type-r is going to rev the nuts off it at every set of lights.
same goes for the indian/asian guy in the golf.
audi A/S3 drivers tend to be the more sensible drivers.

on the other hand,
most drivers of the clio 172/182 tend to be very sedate and polite drivers,
where-as the saxo/106 guys/gals are the unruly ones.

with the impreza, anything 'bog-standard' seems to be driven by rally wannabes but the special edition cars
i.e RB5 or the P1 are driven by the more civilised people.

go figure....

"Secondly, the performance Impreza's are much more expensive that either the GTi or Type R, and neither is it a hatch back. As far as I'm aware, the Suberu is only available as saloon and estate..."

yep.
he is allowed back on the forums and he immediately starts to make stupid posts.
now you understand why he was banned before.....

back to hot hatches.
i know it's a bit pricey but how the BMW 1 series?
and then there's my personal favourite (expensive) hatch: the alfa 147 (GTA please...)

the best thing about the Civic is the price.
at the moment there are hatches that can match/better the performance, match/better the drive/feel or match/better the quality
but none can seem to offer it at anything near that price.

the new golf GTi, don't forget, is slower and more expensive.....
for most people, that's enough to make them say no.
on the other hand, the majority of people who walk into a VW showroom isn't likely to go into a Honda showroom.....

personally, if i was in the market for that size/kind of car, i would pay more and go for the aforementioned alfa 147 GTA.
i think it looks great, if a little fat but has an engine to die for.
and of course, those alloys are simply too cool.....

Scary thing is, i've seen some brand new pre-registered cars for less than £19,000.
very tempting.....

i know it's a flawed car and isn't as technically sharp as the Civic or as well built/engineered as the golf but i don't care.

[finally_retired]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

with the impreza, anything 'bog-standard' seems to be driven by rally wannabes but the special edition cars
i.e RB5 or the P1 are driven by the more civilised people.

go figure....

I have watched a guy doing dohnuts on a pub carpark in an STi 5 Type R, while a bunch of kids were playing football. I have also watched a guy in a UK5 trying to overtake 4 cars in one go, and failed causing one car to ditch into a hedge just to avoid a head on collision. So i'm afraid i'm sticking to my oppinions on this one.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

the new golf GTi, don't forget, is slower and more expensive.....
for most people, that's enough to make them say no.
on the other hand, the majority of people who walk into a VW showroom isn't likely to go into a Honda showroom....

With the new GTi, Its not really a game of figures. Speaking from experience on greasy wet roads, the GTi's forte is in the way it puts the power down. It may be slower in a line, and slower to 60, but around corners, its on rails and would easily trouce a Civic or Meggane. And lets face it, there arn't many roads in Britain that don't have a bend in them.

[Polygon]

I voted for the Golf, and I don't have much more to say then that since Jimster kind of beat me to it.

On a side note, I am getting sick of people posting up car comparisons and then people coming in and trying to disregard that comparison and add a different car. If you want to compare another car then start your own damn thread. Do not knock someone else’s off topic. Especially when you're trying to add a car such as the STi, which isn't even a hatch back, to a comparison between two hot hatches.

[drunken monkey]

"And lets face it, there arn't many roads in Britain that don't have a bend in them"

apart from milton keynes......
i have a friend who lives there and taking her home for the first time was a true eye opener.

"I have watched a guy doing dohnuts on a pub carpark in an STi 5 Type R, while a bunch of kids were playing football. I have also watched a guy in a UK5 trying to overtake 4 cars in one go"

but turn up at southend/west cliff on a saturday night and you'll see more civic type-r s doing daft things.
like i say, depends on where you are.

and..... well, i still say you'd see more stupid things done in a saxo (again) than any other car mentioned so far.

anyway.
i just noticed that i didn't actually answer the question.
well.... i kinda did.
like i said, if i was to buy one, i wouldn't chose either.

but purely asking which one i prefere, i think i'd have to go with the civic.
an old uni friend has one and i drove it a few times and i really like the way it feels.
i hold the steering wheel a bit funny
(hands at 8:15)
and the gear shift is right where i want it
and i have to say the engine kinda suits my driving style;
either on it full chat or off it and nice and easy.

then again, i've never been a golf fan.

[VAD0R]

My vote goes to the People's Wagon as well, Honda has done absolutely nothing as of yet to resurrect any bit of the sport or any image for that matter, other than touting their reliability which is probably slipping right into the grip of Korea's Hyundai.

All they have doing recently is use there big money to broadcast the fact that they just utilized a strut technology that has been around for years? Don't get me wrong, the MacPherson design is a very good economic and space saving design that also makes good great performance. It is like how GM was touting their Lotus tuned suspension vehicles in the 80s. But with the money Honda has, or at least go around as if they have, they can do a bit more.

Perhaps a resurrection of a new Honda City Turbo is in order?

[VAD0R]

Did I make a total fool out of myself on that last post

How good is the MacPherson suspention system?

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by VAD0R

How good is the MacPherson suspention system?

Depends on aplication and design.

In theory its not as good as a double wishbone set up, but in a road car you need to make compromises, and it can be as good as a double wish bone set up when those compromises are taken into the design.

Honda currently dosn't have as much money as they would like, they are starting another level of global expansion that has taken away money that could be used to design cars, and put into marketing and manufactoring.
The result is a smaller more simplified line up of models, with more global similarity. I don't think they have had so few models, with so much in common since the mid 80s, thats 20 years ago when they last embarked on a large scale global expansion putting emphasis on marketing and manufactoring rather than design.
Forunatly it was followed by the very succesful late 80s and early 90s, where they developed VTEC, the NSX and for over 10 years every passanger car they made used double wish bone suspension on at least the front wheels, most having it on all 4.
They made what was undeniably the best Hot Hatch of all time, the SiR and Type R civic, and the best FWD chassis of all time, the Type R Integra.

At the moment though they are at a low point design and technology wise, although the new iVTEC and iVTEC-i engines are regarded as the best 4cyl engines in the world, thier chassis are lacking some of the class leading handling and design they used to be famous for.
That said the current Type R civic is still the best handling FWD chassis in production, even the biased Top Gear will admit that. Its a testimont to Honda that they have not lost the plot, they are still driven by a love of cars, and that the pursuit of motorsport is still very much at the heart of the company.

What the Civic lacks is level of control over a bumpy surfaces the softer sprung and heavier Golf has.
On a race track the Civic is easily the faster car, on a rough uneven road the Civic will still be faster, but require a much higher level of skill to control on the limit and may just push the envelop of fun into the realm of scary and hard work.

I think the best comment Iv head about the Type R Civic is "its a Lotus 7 with a roof and doors that you fit some shopping in".
Its not a car everyone is going to enjoy, or even see the point of.
Its performance is so raw you have to ask if just looking like a hatch back is enough to be one.

The VW golf on the other hand retains all its hatch back comforts and is the friendler more conservative car. But then VWs are friendly and conservative by design and deffinition.

[WickedNYCowboy]

I am for the GTi. I saw a bit on it on 5th gear/top gear(is on BBC in UK) on speed channel. I also read about it in motor trend I believe. It is an impressive car.

[CrzyMR2T]

Originally Posted by VAD0R

Did I make a total fool out of myself on that last post

How good is the MacPherson suspention system?

its pretty good for a front suspension. id say its second or third best independent suspension system to the multilink, and the double wishbone design. basically, you wont be able to make the macpherson strut suspension perform like the double wishbone suspension, but its close. cars with strut supension only on the front still perform extremely well, like the 911 turbo, bmw m3, and the lancer evo. cars with struts at all four corners perform good to, like the subaru wrx sti, and the mazda protege.

the double wishbone suspension system is said to provide a more linear, predictable steering feel for the driver. it gives the car a better ride, it sends less shock to the chassis. wheel positioning is better through out compression, chamber change, and toe change is superior. it usually has less rebound, and its easier to tune.

the macpherson strut is more robust, more compact, cheaper to produce.

even with all this advantage, you also have to look at the overall balance of the car.