I think I'm cursed...PLEASE HELP

[TheBettie]

My car sat with the engine in various states of dismemberment for over 2 months while I tried to get a mechanic over here to reset the timing chain and adjust the valves so I wouldn't have to do it, only to have the 2 guys I did get, tear her down and never come back. So she's all fixed (I had to do it myself, learning by trial and error) and I start her up today and there's WATER in the oil -- not a lot, but it's there. Pleasepleaseplease, is it possible that there's condensation in the engine because of the uncommonly cold weather and rain we've had in the last couple of months? Do I have to tear her down AGAIN to have the head machined or something? What are your views on block sealers?

Gigi

[Hodo]

You maybe jumping to conclusions there. Slow down, what all did you have done to it. It could have been from where you had the heads off and water got into the oil passages that way. Or it could just be a small water leak through one of the gaskets. Could also be when you had the water pump off it could have ran down the front of the engine and got in through the front of the oil pan gasket. (I am reaching here becuase I have NO clue what kind of Z or what you were doing to it.)

[TheBettie]

This is the horror story of horror stories and I'm really sorry it's so long, but then you'll know why I think there's a curse somewhere.

The Baby is a '79 280ZX, with an L28 engine. She sat for 3 years before I bought her last March and in July a friend of mine helped me to replace the head (I blew the gasket), manifold (cracked), all the gaskets and most of the hoses. However, this guy had only worked on Harleys and American cars and he couldn't understand when I told him that he couldn't treat the Baby the same way, because Zs aren't as forgiving. I guess he didn't want to listen to a chick, manuals notwithstanding. Anyway, then I was a lot more ignorant than I am now and I never realized at the time that the replacement head he put on the Baby needed to have the valves checked, not once, but twice.

Right away, I know something's wrong because she's burning TWO quarts of oil a week (no water at ALL, tho). But she's such a pleasure to drive (5-speed manual that would make you cry, she shifts so sweet) and otherwise she was running great, with the exception of my gas mileage was still too low, so I waited to see if any weirdness would happen.

Sure enough, about three months ago, she started frying the hose the EGR tube was spliced with [by the previous owner] one on the way to work and one on the way back (20 miles each way). She wasn't overheating and never needed an ounce of water, so I just kept putting hoses on twice a day until I could pay for a mechanic to look at her. I thought it would be expensive because I only know of Ricky's L.A. Z in Hawthorne and they charge $75/hr. But then one day I drove home and she wouldn't start again (she's never left me stranded, the good girl). Hawthorne is way far from where I live, so I now I had to find someone who could work on her at home.

More than one person told me it sounded as if my catalytic convertor needed to be replaced, so I did that, myself. But she wouldn't have any of it. So then I thought maybe it was the timing, because maybe it needed to be different because of the new cat. Please keep in mind that I'm teaching myself this whole time and also asking people just in case there's something I hadn't thought of.

Now, when we put the engine back together in August (both of us worked full time so it took a month), my friend had had to WAY hyper-advance the distributor past the slot, so I thought I'd check a few things. Right off the bat, I found: 1) the vacuum hoses were all in the wrong places; 2) the vacuum delay valves (there are 2) were backwards; 3) he'd put Bosch platinum spark plugs in her (I had read that Z's HATE those, but he snuck them in when I wasn't looking) and had gapped them at 35, when the book says between 39 and 41; 4) the water temperature sensor and the thermotime sensor had had their pigtails switched; and 5) further reading of my Haynes and Chilton manuals told me about adjusting the valves and I know for a fact he didn't do it.

The first guy I got out of the phone book. I figured he had to be honest if he was in the Yellow Pages, right? Sure he was. He came while I was at work (my roommate was home) and called me to tell me he thought it was the control unit and a couple of other little things, but it'd be about $175 to fix. Cool. By the time I got home he was already gone for the day, but he'd taken most of the wires and hoses off the engine and my control unit was on the floor in front of the driver's seat. He had gotten $50 from my roommate out of the money I'd left her so he could buy a part (don't know what) and was going to come back the next day. The guy never came back or bothered to return a call. I quickly realized it looked worse than it was and put her back together myself, but had to buy a new Haynes manual because the asshole took BOTH my manuals with him, never to be seen again. I feel at a serious disadvantage without the Chilton, let me tell you.

So she sat in my driveway for about six weeks all told until I was referred to a friend of a friend. I know, I know, big mistake. But the guy was doing everything literally by the book, so I was reassured. At first.

In the beginning he was doing everything very quickly. He told me that he thought the oil pump was off a tooth or two and that the timing chain was probably off that much as well. He tore the whole thing down and sure enough, the timing chain was off as well as the oil pump. (The fried hose problem ended up being because one of the EGR hoses was completely clogged with carbon deposits.) But when he'd try to turn the engine over by hand, it kept getting stuck. He messed with it for a week and then I finally got him to call someone he knew who knew these types of engines and they suggested adjusting the valves. That did the trick and he made me think it would only be another day before she'd be roadworthy again. Actually, she would have been if the guy had bothered to do what he was supposed to. At this point, she'd been on jacks for over two months and I was looking forward to getting her down.

He started being absent more than he was here and when he would show up at all it was at 2 or 3 in the afternoon. Now, it's been uncommonly cold at night these past 2 months and with Daylight Savings Time the sun goes down shortly after 5:00. So things slowed WAY down, needless to say.

Ultimately the guy just stopped coming to work on her. I haven't seen him since two weeks ago today. My engine was still completely torn down. The only things he'd done was reset the chain and gapped the valves. He hadn't even completely tightened the cam and crank bolts.

After checking everything to be sure it was right, I rented a HUGE torque wrench and proceeded to put her back together alone. I think I'm permanently stained with motor oil on my arms, chest and face at this point. Good thing I'm in love with this car, not to mention having my blood, sweat and tears literally in every part of her.

The thing is, the last guy had said he thought there was water in the oil and yesteray when I finally started her up, sure enough, there was. Now, I saw the way it looked when I blew the head gasket and it was a gross kind of milkshake and very watery with almost no oil slickness to it. I've only just started her; I haven't even tried to time her yet because I wanted to ask you guys since you seem to have Zs in your blood and I trust what you say. Anyway, the oil, which is of course fresh, is only cloudy as opposed to milky. Should I just go ahead and time her, drive her and then check the oil again? My poor Baby.

Again I apologize for this EPIC. Thank you so much for your input. The Baby thanks you, too.

-Gigi

[Hodo]

Well Gigi, first I would like to say sorry about the asses you had to deal with before. And you are right the Fairlady is VERY picky about the kinds of people who work on them. And BTW where do you live I dont want to have to deal with those companies you have delt with before.

Now heres my little assessment of the whole situation.
Its not bad. Sounds like it all started when the first guy did the work on the car, he could have creased or crimped a gasket as he was putting it on, very common on straight sixes, and or the head or deck is warped. This would cause the reacuring problems you keep having with the gasket and the water leak. As for the EGR and the oil pump that happens over time if something is wrong elswere. So far you have been pretty lucky, but I will say it will probly get a bit pricy now to see what is exactly wrong. You can do most of this yourself you seem competent enough to check your own head and deck for warpage.

Step 1- go to Sears, Snap-On, Matco tools, Ace Hardware, or anyplace like that that sale good straight edge tools. You will need a meter long perfect straight edge. The dont cost to much and some machine shops can make you one for pretty cheap. Also you will need a accurate set of feeler gauges, get some good ones these will help with the checking.

Step 2- remove the Head and gasket from the engine, make sure to remove all the oil and coolant from it too, and just to be sure the battery, you dont want to accidently bump it over while you are in it. Hand turn it till it is just past TDC (top dead center) for cylinder 1. Then take your straight edge and lay it across the engine deck diagnaly(doesnt matter which way you start front left to back right or front right to back left.) take your feeler gauges and try to slide the smallest thickness feeler under it, without moving the straight edge, do this on the raised parts of the engine the parts that are in contact with the straight edge, not down in the cylinder holes. (( I have to say that becuase I have seen some dumb asses place the gauges down in the cylinders between the piston and the straight edge.)) Make sure to check on each area that makes contact with the edge. Write down the size of the feeler that slides through and the place on the engine. This will help in determining if its warped.

Step 3- After you have measured across the engine deck diagnally go straight back, from front to back and do the measurements again. Write them down like the others. The total measurements patern should look like a X with a I going through the middle.

I hope you are following me so far. Cause its hard to explain without being able to draw it out.

Step 4- turn the head over so its bottom is facing up on a table or work bench. Do the same measurements again with the straight edge on the head. Same X with I, write down the numbers again.

Step 5- find the specs for what the head and deck should be within. But trust me if its warped you will have a wild set of numbers completely different than the others on either the head and or the deck.

If the head or Deck is warped thats not bad news either, just find a good reputable machine shop to see if they can work them back into specs. This may change the compression ratio a hair but nothing a thicker gasket cant fix. And then everything should be a good as new, and you didnt have to get a new engine.

Hopefully Albert comes on and helps out with this post I just turn wrenches for Volvo and Lincoln/Mercury/Ford, I havent had to do a head/deck check in a few years.

[TheBettie]

Hodo:

Thank you so much for not slamming me for the length of my reply. I'm a legal secretary who is also an avid reader, so I tend to go on and on...kinda like now. LOL

I would also like to thank you for your response. I do feel confident enough to do the tear down again solo (I never thought I'd be so into tools – I just love my ratcheting wrenches, go figure). But I wanted to ask you if there's any way to see if in fact it wasn't just water that collected in her while she was exposed? I only ask because before she stopped altogether she never overheated or even came close, two quarts of oil a week notwithstanding. I never even had to top off the radiator or overflow even ONCE. Also, about the 2 quarts: how can ANY vehicle go through that much oil with never a smell, no smoke or any kind of leak whatsoever? I still don't know enough to even make a guess.

Finally, I wanted to know if you gave me the "worst case scenario." If so, I don't have the words to describe my relief (and the Baby is glad she won't have those ham-handed guys touching her stuff now that Momma's taken over). God, I love that car! Does it show?

-G

[k3smostwanted]

the love for your car definitely shows...i must say. for water leaking into your oil, hodo's reply is probably your worst case scenario. i would think...

you might also want to check your coolant hoses to make sure they are not clogged or pinched in anyway. this could be the reason for you not noticing any coolant being drained from the reservoir. just wanted to add in...

good luck!!!!

[DeleriousZ]

1 wordish type thing... rb20det


are you sure there was never any oil in the coolant? it could be leaking/burning off coolant with the oil leaking into the coolant? i dunno it's an off the wall idea, but i've got no clue... just go out to your baby and give her a big hug... then kick the engine... might not solve the problem, but it'll sure make you feel better

also, it's ok to enjoy working on the Z... just means you've caught the bug like everyone else here

[k3smostwanted]

Originally Posted by DeleriousZ

1 wordish type thing... rb20det



also, it's ok to enjoy working on the Z... just means you've caught the bug like everyone else here

hmm....yumm....rb20det!!! mmmmmm....Z bugs...yummm!!! errr...yeah, nevermind!!!

[TheBettie]

k3smostwanted: Thanks. This last bout with a non-driving Baby made me so paranoid I replaced all the hoses all over again, along with half the gaskets. BTW: love the avatar.

DeleriousZ: Last night I almost did EXACTLY that. But we're talking about THE BABY here, so I went in the house and kicked my bedframe instead (wrought iron) and stomped around on our hard wood floors in my high heeled boots so everyone within 3 blocks could hear it. Satisfying? It is when you imagine you're stomping the faces of the guys who messed her up! (And forgive my ignorance, but what is RB20DET?

You know, I've only lurked on this site a few times, but y'all seem like Z gurus to me. When the Baby first turned my head, I thougnt I was the only one to be so...let's call it "enthusiastic"...I'm really glad I found this site. Thanks again, everyone.

-G

[Broke_as_****]

An RB20DET is a turbocharged inline 6 cylinder out of the base model Skylines, makes 200hp in stock trim and can be easily upgraded to about 400hp or more before any major changes are needed.

Basically the advice of most members is if you are having engine problems, pull the motor and drop in something more powerful. After a while they get to be just an annoying buzz in the background.

Also:

Baby's Gothic Mom

Yeah...I think you'll make things quite interesting around here.

[TheBettie]

Whoa, followed your link...I think I'm in love. Where can I see an exploded view of that engine? Or did I just ask for the key to the chastity belt?

-G

[Hodo]

Yea what I was saying IS one of the worst case scenarios. But it may not be any better, my service manager here at work said it could be a cracked head or block. This would cause a water leak into the oil pan and a consomption of oil. Hopefully its not.

But on the up side the RB20DET is a good engine, but its not VG30DE, or VQ35DE.......but maybe I am kinda Z byest.

As for the tools, you will become a HUGE fan of Matco, Mac, Craftsman, Snap-on...... and the rest. Ratcheting wrenches, metric tools, and stubby ratchets and wrenchs will be your freind.

[Broke_as_****]

Originally Posted by TheBettie

Whoa, followed your link...I think I'm in love. Where can I see an exploded view of that engine?

http://www.skylinegts.co.uk/images/R32-Info/RB20DET.jpg

If you are considering such a swap, check with the local restrictions. I know California has some harsh anti-upgrading policys about cars, but as a 79 model, your car may be exempt from them. And if do wish to swap in an RB series motor, there is a larger size also readily available, the RB25DET. Same engine, just bored and stroked for an extra 500cc of displacement. There is also the RB26DETT that powered the GT-R Skylines but this motor is much more expensive and takes more custom work to install.

Or did I just ask for the key to the chastity belt?

An apt phrase...once you start upgrading a car...it can be hard to stop. When the engine in my 300ZX blew...I was just going to drop another stock engine in and leave it at that. Then I figured while it was out I might as well do a few simple upgrades...7 months later I'm into a full engine rebuild and turbo upgrade.

[k3smostwanted]

Originally Posted by Hodo

But on the up side the RB20DET is a good engine, but its not VG30DE, or VQ35DE.......but maybe I am kinda Z byest.

but the rb20det came in the z31!!! over in japan. referred to as the infamous 200ZR...yeah, thats right. Z's with an RB!!!

and broke as **** is right, we have a tendency to recommend replacing engines for some reason.... we need to cut it out guys...

[Hodo]

thats true K3, but I am still byest to my Z32......dont think a straight 6 was in there over in japan.... same engine as here just less power, sorta.