God's Will VS. God's Percieved Will.

[2strokebloke]

It's funny, considering that God is all powerful that pitiful humans beleive they know what he wants better than him.
For instance, if God actually despised abortion, he could stop it. But babies have been getting killed for ages - if it were actually out of the womb, and somebody had hit it with a car, or it had drowned, people would say something like "God had other plans for her/him" but if it's in the womb, it's the work of the devil, and it's just murder - there's no "greater purpose" or "other plan" from God (supposedly).
If God hated sexual immorality, or homosexuality, he could get rid of it, after all he supposedly destroyed whole cities before because of it. So if it's wrong in his eyes, he should feel free to destroy some more cities right?
Maybe his values have changed, maybe he's just stopped caring, perhaps he has more important projects to work on, or perhaps it's just God's will that people will try their darndest to enforce what they believe is God's will, and thus there is no purpose for him to do his own dirty work.
If we were to leave everything up to God and faith in him, why do we have government? Why do we have police or guns and weapons? What is wrong with letting God have his way? What is so wrong with God's will that even the people who believe in it most, must say that the world he has created is so full of evil?
Why is it that people believe that it's wrong for a women to alter "God's design" by getting breast implants, but it's perfectly all right for them to have their son's genitals mutilated as a child? After all if God had wanted circumcision in his design of man, we'd have been born that way right?
What is it that God's believers just don't get? Why must they make up God's mind for him?

[MagicRat]

Are we baiting the religiously-minded participants with plain logic here??

To quote (or paraphrase) Yogi Berra (sp) "You can tell a lot by just looking"
It's very easy to find all kinds of logical inconsistencies in just about every facet of organised religion. It does not seem to dissuade the faithful from their (IMAO delusional) beliefs.

I expect a religious person would say that God does not want to make up our minds for us about Good and Evil.
Instead He gives us the freedom to make our own mistakes and find our own way to worship him or prove our worth so we can be saved on Judgement day, or go to heaven or whatever other miraculous and unproven fate awaits us after death.

[2strokebloke]

Actually, I'm not saying there isn't God, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the way he created the earth (if he does exist) or the way he runs things, I'm just pointing out that apparently alot of what God "likes" and doesn't "like" is just bunk invented by people who apparently aren't in touch with the reality he has created.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by 2strokebloke

Actually, I'm not saying there isn't God, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the way he created the earth (if he does exist) or the way he runs things, I'm just pointing out that apparently alot of what God "likes" and doesn't "like" is just bunk invented by people who apparently aren't in touch with the reality he has created.

Awww........come on, admit there is no God, you'll feel better!!

I do agree with you, but I will take it one step further.
The only suggestion for the existence of God is the word of the faithful, or as you say "bunk invented by people" (an accurate description).
Therefore, if organsied religion allows so many obvious flaws and inconsistencies to exist, such as those you mention, I am inclined to believe that the most fundamental concept of western organised religion - the existence of God - is not true.

I am also saying that no matter how spectacularly inconsistent religious teaching are, the religiously faithful can (and I am sure will) explain away all inconsistencies. How?? Well, one cannot use logic (as you attempt to do) to discredit the fundamental illogic of religion.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Originally Posted by 2strokebloke

It's funny, considering that God is all powerful that pitiful humans beleive they know what he wants better than him.
For instance, if God actually despised abortion, he could stop it. But babies have been getting killed for ages - if it were actually out of the womb, and somebody had hit it with a car, or it had drowned, people would say something like "God had other plans for her/him" but if it's in the womb, it's the work of the devil, and it's just murder - there's no "greater purpose" or "other plan" from God (supposedly).
If God hated sexual immorality, or homosexuality, he could get rid of it, after all he supposedly destroyed whole cities before because of it. So if it's wrong in his eyes, he should feel free to destroy some more cities right?
Maybe his values have changed, maybe he's just stopped caring, perhaps he has more important projects to work on, or perhaps it's just God's will that people will try their darndest to enforce what they believe is God's will, and thus there is no purpose for him to do his own dirty work.
If we were to leave everything up to God and faith in him, why do we have government? Why do we have police or guns and weapons? What is wrong with letting God have his way? What is so wrong with God's will that even the people who believe in it most, must say that the world he has created is so full of evil?
Why is it that people believe that it's wrong for a women to alter "God's design" by getting breast implants, but it's perfectly all right for them to have their son's genitals mutilated as a child? After all if God had wanted circumcision in his design of man, we'd have been born that way right?
What is it that God's believers just don't get? Why must they make up God's mind for him?

Your right. God could put an end to all those things but you forgot one thing. He created man with free will. Its man, who with his own free will, thats commicts those acts. If God were to put an end to it then whats use the use of having free will? Because if God were to truly end all acts he deemed evil, then he would be controlling man.

BTW... this, Support America's dependence on foreign oil - drive an SUV! is absolutly hilarious!

[2strokebloke]

The only suggestion for the existence of God is the word of the faithful

But you're forgetting, that there is no way to dissprove God. You can dissprove, all of the religions (of any God or Gods) because they're all man made, and fictional. But you can't dissprove the idea of a greater being, or "creator" simply because you cannot dissprove, what you cannot prove.

If God were to put an end to it then whats use the use of having free will? Because if God were to truly end all acts he deemed evil, then he would be controlling man.

I don't think you got what it was that I was trying to say. I'm talking about "acts of God" God's will, people will say it's "God's will" whenever something happens, but they won't accept "God's will" when something happens that doesn't agree with them - or rather what they claim should be God's will (though they have no evidence that it is).

[dirtydx]

He gives us life and thats it. Everything else is up to us.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Well they also talk of a Divine plan. Maybe this is all apart of his plan. He has to have a reason to end the world and the way things are going he might have just found his reason. I dunno.

[Steel]

Freewill.

[2strokebloke]

I get the impression that nobody is actually reading the first post.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Originally Posted by 2strokebloke

I get the impression that nobody is actually reading the first post.

Happens all the time...

[KustmAce]

Originally Posted by 2strokebloke

It's funny, considering that God is all powerful that pitiful humans beleive they know what he wants better than him.
For instance, if God actually despised abortion, he could stop it. But babies have been getting killed for ages - if it were actually out of the womb, and somebody had hit it with a car, or it had drowned, people would say something like "God had other plans for her/him" but if it's in the womb, it's the work of the devil, and it's just murder - there's no "greater purpose" or "other plan" from God (supposedly).
If God hated sexual immorality, or homosexuality, he could get rid of it, after all he supposedly destroyed whole cities before because of it. So if it's wrong in his eyes, he should feel free to destroy some more cities right?
Maybe his values have changed, maybe he's just stopped caring, perhaps he has more important projects to work on, or perhaps it's just God's will that people will try their darndest to enforce what they believe is God's will, and thus there is no purpose for him to do his own dirty work.
If we were to leave everything up to God and faith in him, why do we have government? Why do we have police or guns and weapons? What is wrong with letting God have his way? What is so wrong with God's will that even the people who believe in it most, must say that the world he has created is so full of evil?
Why is it that people believe that it's wrong for a women to alter "God's design" by getting breast implants, but it's perfectly all right for them to have their son's genitals mutilated as a child? After all if God had wanted circumcision in his design of man, we'd have been born that way right?
What is it that God's believers just don't get? Why must they make up God's mind for him?

What a good post, and I couldn't agree more with it. I think a lot of the time people are just using God or "God's Will" as an excuse to criticize things that they don't like personally. Like the breast implants, or homosexuality.

[Steel]

like i said. God gave us freewill to do what we want. We are judged after death.

[lazysmurff]

but why would god give us free will? what does it serve him?

[bighauns]

I didnt read the whole first post...but i think what you are saying is is that it is retarded that people say "its God's will" or "it was in God's plan"...stuff like that.

But at the same time they can say all these other things are because of us and why can't God stop them.

Well, that is rather confusing I agree and I really don't have a solid answer other than what I believe.

I feel that God does have a plan for our lives, but at the same time knows what we are going to CHOOSE. This is odd and can not be understood...how can God let us choose, but still have free will. I am not sure, but God is not of this "world" or anything like that.

Soooo, I don't think God can be blamed for those things happening, I think that people largely just say that to put the "blame" somewhere. Whereas homosexuality, abortion, suffering, etc. can all be stopped by God, that would be interferring with Free Will.

I am not sure what I accomplished by posting this, but I think it is basically saying that in my opinion, from what I have learned that God is all powerful, gives us free will and does not cause us to suffer.

As for people using Gods will to critize personal dislikes, I think it is false. People are basically just told that "Your life has been decided for you" so they think everything is decided. However, God has still given us the coices to go throughout our day and we still know right from wrong and we still choose one or the other. God may know what we will choose, but we have that choice and he will use it either right then and there or in the future to teach us something.

Although, I am sure that there are times that people "take avantage" of that and simply shove the blame or excuse on God, but that is not the large amount of people, in my opinion.


thanks for listening...i am out.