clutch/trans problem

[erubin]

I am helping my friend with his 92 S10 4cyl. The clutch fork remains in the disengaged position. It's as though the clutch pedal is depressed fully which it is not. In case you are thinking clutch cylinder, it's not that.

I can pry the fork back to the engaged position with a bar. When i release the fork it springs back to the disengaged position! shouldn't spring pressure be pushing the fork in the engaged position instead. What could be doing this? What parts will i probably need to replace?

The clutch was replaced 3 times by some shoddy mechanic. now my friend wants me to help fix it but i've never done a S10 clutch.

Also my friend said when he saw the trans out of the truck the last time the clutch was redone, he noticed that the transmission input shaft had a large amount of lateral play (over 1"). Is this normal or is the trans going bad.

Would hate to replace the clutch only to find out that the trans is bad. A used trans costs about $350.

[Mikado14]

Originally Posted by erubin

I am helping my friend with his 92 S10 4cyl. The clutch fork remains in the disengaged position. It's as though the clutch pedal is depressed fully which it is not. In case you are thinking clutch cylinder, it's not that.

I can pry the fork back to the engaged position with a bar. When i release the fork it springs back to the disengaged position! shouldn't spring pressure be pushing the fork in the engaged position instead. What could be doing this? What parts will i probably need to replace?

The clutch was replaced 3 times by some shoddy mechanic. now my friend wants me to help fix it but i've never done a S10 clutch.

Also my friend said when he saw the trans out of the truck the last time the clutch was redone, he noticed that the transmission input shaft had a large amount of lateral play (over 1"). Is this normal or is the trans going bad.

Would hate to replace the clutch only to find out that the trans is bad. A used trans costs about $350.

First of all, this should be a hydraulic clutch. Did you try opening the bleeder to see if the slave would come back?

As for the tranny, do you realize how much play you are talking here? That would mean that the input shaft bearing is gone, totally, not to mention the input shaft housing would have to be almost if not totally non-existent.

[OverBoardProject]

If the input shaft was that bad you'd be very luck to hobble the truck to the next town, so your friend must have been mistaken.

If the transmission is faulty it'll be making alot of noise, or popping out of gear, or even turning the shift lever really hot. Often all of these things. If it seems to work fine I'd just fix the clutch, check the trany fluid, and leave it alone.

[erubin]

Thank you for your advice regarding the trans. i suspect (as you do) that my friend did not really see such a sloppy input shaft. How much lateral play do you guess is acceptable? Anything else to check when we take it off?

Back to the clutch. Yes it is a hydraulic controlled unit. The master is bled and so is the slave. Please forget about them for a moment. The problem i'm seeing is not due to the hydraulic cylinders.

The clutch fork remains in the disengaged position even though the slave is not pushing it. The position of the fork is as it would be if we were appling the clutch pedal fully which is not the case. I feel spring pressure when i pry the fork into the engaged position. This seems backwards to me. I would expect spring pressure pushing the fork into the engaged position instead. What could be doing this? What parts will i probably need to replace?

[Mikado14]

Originally Posted by erubin

Thank you for your advice regarding the trans. i suspect (as you do) that my friend did not really see such a sloppy input shaft. How much lateral play do you guess is acceptable? Anything else to check when we take it off?

Back to the clutch. Yes it is a hydraulic controlled unit. The master is bled and so is the slave. Please forget about them for a moment. The problem i'm seeing is not due to the hydraulic cylinders.

The clutch fork remains in the disengaged position even though the slave is not pushing it. The position of the fork is as it would be if we were appling the clutch pedal fully which is not the case. I feel spring pressure when i pry the fork into the engaged position. This seems backwards to me. I would expect spring pressure pushing the fork into the engaged position instead. What could be doing this? What parts will i probably need to replace?

Something sounds as if this has come apart inside of a catatrophic nature. I take it that this is an external slave cylinder (never worked on a manual this old) and you have a clutch fork going into the side of the bell housing. If the fork is stuck in, and this is a good guess, the fork has slipped past the throwout bearing and is stuck behind the fingers. If this is a diaphragm pressure plate, I can't see this happening. If it is a coil spring pressure plate (three fingers), I can. In any event, your looking at pulling the tranny to get in there and see what's wrong. This does not sound like a repair without it.

If there is an opening around the fork or an inspection plate on the bottom of the bell housing, have you tried looking inside?

[erubin]

Thank you Mikado,

The slave cylinder is on the outside ot the trans/bell housing. there is an inspection plate (it's missing) that would covers the fork and the plunger end of the slave cylinder. Will be tricky to look in but will try with a mirror. Doubt I'll be able to see anything of value. It is odd to me (limited experience) that there is spring pressure pushing the fork in the wrong direction (away from the cylinder, the disengage clutch position). normally (i would think) the spring pressure should be pushing the fork to the clutch engaged position (against the slave cylinder). Could a catastrophic event cause the spring pressure to somehow reverse? Next step will be to take things apart.

What is normally changed?
1. clutch disk
2. pressure plate
3. throw out bearing
4. pilot bearing
6. resurface the flywheel

Is it obvious from inspection if all or any of the above need replacing. Any other parts? Just want to have a budget idea before we tear in. I will be real curious to see what my friend meant by lots of lateral play on the transmission output shaft.

Will be removing the trans without a trans jack. hope that's not too crazy. can the car be put up high enough with just front jack stands to remove the trans from under the truck? If it needs to go rteal high will have to raise the rear too i guess.

Should there be anything between the slave cylinder push rod and the fork, or is metal to metal OK?

[Mikado14]

Originally Posted by erubin

Thank you Mikado,

The slave cylinder is on the outside ot the trans/bell housing. there is an inspection plate (it's missing) that would covers the fork and the plunger end of the slave cylinder. Will be tricky to look in but will try with a mirror. Doubt I'll be able to see anything of value. It is odd to me (limited experience) that there is spring pressure pushing the fork in the wrong direction (away from the cylinder, the disengage clutch position). normally (i would think) the spring pressure should be pushing the fork to the clutch engaged position (against the slave cylinder). Could a catastrophic event cause the spring pressure to somehow reverse? Next step will be to take things apart.

What is normally changed?
1. clutch disk
2. pressure plate
3. throw out bearing
4. pilot bearing
6. resurface the flywheel

Is it obvious from inspection if all or any of the above need replacing. Any other parts? Just want to have a budget idea before we tear in. I will be real curious to see what my friend meant by lots of lateral play on the transmission output shaft.

Will be removing the trans without a trans jack. hope that's not too crazy. can the car be put up high enough with just front jack stands to remove the trans from under the truck? If it needs to go rteal high will have to raise the rear too i guess.

Should there be anything between the slave cylinder push rod and the fork, or is metal to metal OK?

When I say catastrophic, I mean something is not at all what it is supposed to be. Pretty obvious at this point, right?

Everything you mentioned is correct. You should be able to buy the clutch and pressure plate matched and possibly with the throwout bearing. The pilot is normally seperate. Resurfacing the flywheel runs in my area no more than $80 max depending on what it is. Usually a blanchard grinder.

I would put jack stands all the way around the vehicle and get as much room as you can get and still be SAFE. I have done too many in my lifetime, from underneath that is, to want to do it that way again. Did an Allison in a Ford F700 about 2 months ago and I still have nightmares (LOL). Just have enough room for you and your friend to muscle it out and in. And don't forget to have an alignment tool for the clutch.

It sounds as if you have a good handle on what needs to be done. As far as the slave cylinder rod, They are normally metal to metal.

[erubin]

Wednesday I'm taking the trans out. Unfortunately i've got to bring tools with me as the truck can't be driven. i plan on bringing:
jack and stands
set of socket and box wrenches
allen wrenches (just in case)

Will I need anything else, special toolwise?

After trans removal I will be putting in a new clutch and i guess the special tool i may need has to do with the pilot bearing (I'll farm out the flywell resurface, if needed). Will the trans show up bad by inspection, my friend keeps blaming the problem on the trans but everything i could put together from his description says clutch.

the 92 S10 4cy lists two different trans' put in at the factory; a Muncie 5LM60 or a Warner T5. Both are 5 speeds. i don't know which one is installed. Are clutches universal for either trans? and in case we need to put in a used trans do we need to specify which trans we need?

sorry for all the questions but my searches on this forum couldn't answer these ?

[erubin]

I got the trans out today alone. not fun but not too hard either. the odd thing is nothing looks broken. When i took out the slave cylinder i i could push the fork back and forth with no r4esistance. All i can guess is that the throwout bearing was not compressing the pressure plate. i need to look at the parts again.

The trans input shaft has about 1/4" play. The pilot bearing should keep it straight. What do you think?

Alldata says to use Dexron II ATF in this Borg warner T5. Is that a mistake for a manual trans? and can i still find dexron II?

[erubin]

I just found something on the web that says to use Dexron II/III so I guess that's confirmed. But what I drained from the trans was heavier and poured like manual trans fluid . Could that ruin things? maybe here in Los Angeles it doesn't get cold enough to pose a big problem.

[OverBoardProject]

I don't know about that input shaft. If knowone answers that one by morning, and I remember I'll ask my mechanic.

Yes some G.M. transmissions use ATF fluid, so ALLDATA is probably right, but check the old fluid first. If you still have it. If it's really thin oil it's ATF Fluid, or if it's pretty thick, and usually stinks it'll be good old 80/90 transmission fluid.

All good quality ATF fluid that I ever see is rated as Dexron II compatable. If you can find Synthetic it's even better.

Have fun putting it back together. I usually find taking things like that harder than the re-assembly since the parts are all clean and rust free when I'm re-assembling then

[OverBoardProject]

The book is probably right, and the former mechanic is probably ignorant, and old school

[erubin]

Thanks for your feedback.

I will put in dexron III. The old stuff in there was the heavy stinky stuff. Somehow it worked until the clutch failed.

I am still baffled by why the clutch did not work before. as mentioned when i disconnected the slave cylinder I could swing the clutch fork back and forth (couple of inches) with no resistance. it's as though the throwout bearing was too short or something. I dread the thought of putting all back together and having the same problem. Is the fork supposed to flop around or is pinned in there with the pressure plate even when the clutch is engaged? The spring tabs on the pressure plate look fine.

I guess i'll bring the whole clutch system to an auto parts store tomorrow and compare. I vaguely recall something about using an alignment tool when installing a clutch. Do I need one? Is there a work-around if i can't find this tool at a reasonable price?

[busa_4]

Yes You Need An Alignment Tool For The Clutch Disc. 1/4" Of Play On A Input Shaft Is Not Normal. I Have Never Removed A Trans With Any Signs Of Input Shaft Play. If Your Input Shaft Is Moving That Much It Will Affect Your Throwout Bearing Travel. As For The Throwout Bearing Design, There Are 2 Types: One Is A Push Type Throwout Bearing Where The Clutch Is Dissengauged By Pushing (toward The Engine) The Pressure Plate Springs. The Second Type Is A Pull Type Throwout Bearing Where The Clutch Is Dissengauged By Pulling (toward The Transmission) On The Pressure Plate Springs.

[busa_4]

Also, It Sounds Like The Previous Auto Shop Forgot To Connect The Throwout Bearing To The Pressure Plate.