transmission noise "97 BMW 740 il

[weill]

This summer, a couple of months after purchasing a 1997 740 il with about 100,000 miles, I took it to a highly recommed BMW automotive repair shop, Wedge Kyes in Baton Rouge, to have the transmission fluid changed, as a part of what I believed would be normal maintenance, since I did not know when the transmission fluid was last changed. The old addage of "if it an't broke, don't fix it" should have been applied. The car had prevously been operating perfectly. As I drove home, for the first time, I heard a whining noise between shifting. I took the car to a local transmission shop to check the noise and they showed me literature stating that the transmission fluid in BMW's is not to be changed. I called the BMW dealership in Baton Rouge and asked them to change the transmission fuild. They stated the BMW no change transmission policy to me. I asked them that if I accepted responsibility would they change the fuild three times in succession after driving the car in an attempt to dilute the fluid used by Kyes. Why did Kyes not share the no change transmission policy with me and give me the option not to change my fluid? Since the BMW dealership charged about $250 per change and Kyes charge a little over $100, is that an indication that Kyes did not used the synthetic fluid that is recommended by BMW? Is my transmission permanently damaged and is there anything that I can do about the whine that continues? more in the morning and more on cold days. I do not feel any slipage while shifting. Pleas help.

[ibew595]

The no change policy is iffy at best. There are plastic balls in the tranny which adapt to the old fluid and don't like the new stuff. Kyes may have used the BMW/Audi fluid and the tranny didn't like it or may not have used the right fluid.
A BMW dealer will try to sell you a new tranny so don't ask them.

[libertylover]

"Since the BMW dealership charged about $250 per change and Kyes charge a little over $100, is that an indication that Kyes did not used the synthetic fluid that is recommended by BMW?"

Yes it is; the fluid costs over $20/liter at the dealership and it takes around 12 liters to change it, maybe more. I'm no lawyer but it seems to me that if your transmission was in fact damaged by the fluid that Kyes used you have a valid legal claim against them-they're professionals, they should know better, and they're responsible for their actions. (BTW, Valvoline claims their MaxLife Transmission fluid is a suitable substitute.)

My advice is to contact ZF transmission expert Kirt Koeller in Michigan. I've heard he's a really nice guy and will be glad to help. Contact him here:
Kirt Koeller’s contact info:

Autosports Unlimited
Ask for Kirt Koeller
(800)624-3876 ext 5735 or direct at
(616)748-5735

****************
Some months back I debated whether or not to change my transmission fluid as well. ***The bottom line from the makers of the transmission, ZF Industries in Germany, is that the transmission fluid for the 740i/iL should be changed every 100,000 miles.***

****************
What follows is the email exchange I had with ZF Industries:

Original inquiry:
Sorry, I don't write German.

I own a 1993 BMW 740iL USA version with 5-speed automatic ZF transmission and 118,000 miles on the odometer. The owner's manual states the transmission has a lifetime fill on the fluid. My question is this: is it still considered best to allow the original fluid to remain in the transmission indefinitely or has further research and experience shown that the fluid should indeed be changed?
******************************

Original response (emphasis added):
Thank you for your interest in ZF Industries, Inc., especially in the spare parts program for 4HP24A 4-speed automatic transmissions for Audi applications.

First, I would like to apologize for the delay, but your email was moved within the ZF organization until it reached me.

In regards to your inquiry about replacing the lubricant in your ZF transmission, ***ZF does recommend to replace the oil after 100,000 miles.*** Your vehicle should have a 1055000010 or 1055000029 transmission specification and for that transmission you need a Shell type oil with the ZF part number S671090149 (20 liter canister). Please verify the transmission specification (on the metal type plate on the main housing) before contacting any independent distributor.

ZF Industries, Inc. has a network of independent distributors throughout North America. They offer the wide variety of spare parts for all ZF passenger car transmission applications. For complete factory remanufactured transmissions, please contact your local dealer.

Two types of distributors offer the ZF passenger car transmission product line. Regional distributors and nationwide distributors, such as ATC Distribution Group, Delta Automotive, Inc., and Transtar Industries, Inc., with various locations throughout North America. Both regional and nationwide distributors have access to all the ZF spare parts, kits, lubrications, and literature. In addition, the regional distributors can offer technical assistance or supply complete rebuild transmissions, remanufactured with original spare parts from ZF.

If you are looking for a passenger car transmission distributor, please check our distributor locator on the ZF North America web-page www.zf-group.com at http://www.zf-group.com/am/pc/pt/ampcpt06.phtml for a distributor close to your location.

I would really appreciate, if you could inform me about your experiences with our distributors. If you need further information, do not hesitate to contact me.

Best regards,

ZF INDUSTRIES, INC.
Passenger Car Transmissions
Axel Blaschke - Regional Sales Manager, AM
Email: [email protected]
Web: www.zf-group.com
******************************
Clarification request:

Thank you for your response to my inquiry. However, there is still some confusion since somehow you thought my car is an Audi with a 4HP24 transmission, when if fact it is a 1993 BMW 740iL with a 5HP30 (A5S 560Z) transmission.
...
So, once again, should I or should I not change the fluid in my 5HP30 ZF transmission with 120,000 miles on it?

******************************
Clarification response from ZF:

I guess that was not my day, since I usually copy an old customer inquiry and change the information for the specific questions. In that email I missed to change the Audi 4HP24A information to BMW 5HP30. However, the content below the first paragraph is related to your transmission.

Sorry for the confusion.

Best regards,

ZF INDUSTRIES, INC.
Passenger Car Transmissions
Axel Blaschke - Regional Sales Manager
Email: [email protected]
Web: www.zf-group.com

[weill]

Libertylover: Thank you for you help concerning my 740 iL transmission. I will contact Kert Koeller to see if he has a suggestion about the hum sound I get occasionally. Weill.

[Dick Schneiders]

There is a known problem with the auto tranny whining in these cars, after a filter change, if they did not use an OEM filter or if they reused the little O-ring and it was worn. I purchased, last month, a 1999 740i and one of the first items I had done to it was to have the auto tranny fluid and filter changed. I did a lot of research on various internet forums and found many references to this whining when aftermarket filters are used, or if the O-ring was reused.

The filter needs to have the word "filtran" on it, if it is a true OEM filter.

While I am new to the 7-series, I am not a new BMW owner and have done a lot of research on them. Even though these later model trannys have what BMW calls "lifetime fluid" (a terrible description, in my opinion), the fluid should be changed. A typical time frame is in the 75,000 mile or so range, to be conservative. What happens is that the fluid generally won't cause any problems until the car is out of warranty after 100,000 miles, and then when the tranny fails you have to pay for all the repairs out of your pocket. This is what BMW means when they say the fluid is "lifetime" - it will usually last for the *warranty* lifetime of the transmission. However, most of us would certainly prefer that it last a lot longer than that. Therefore, to help insure this longevity, the tranny fluid (which is expensive) and the filter should be changed.

I was able to get the fluid at a VW/Audi dealer at around $16 a liter, and it came in single liter bottles. The BMW dealer would only sell it in 20 liter containers and it was about $28 a liter. The BMW dealers certainly aren't going to make it easy for the fluid and filters on these cars to be changed by anyone else but them. The Audi A-8 uses the very same transmission as does my 740i, and therefore uses the same Esso transmission fluid.

My 740i had 90,000 miles on it when I bought it, and probably never had the transmission fluid/filter changed. When I did it, the fluid was very dirty, but the filter and inside of the pan looked pretty good. Simply draining the pan, as I did, will not get all of the old fluid out since some of it will remain in the torque converter. However, this will get enough new fluid into the system to help, and I plan on doing another drain and refill in several months to get more of the, now diluted, old fluid out.

I don't know much about the transmission flushes I see advertised, that claim to replace all of the fluid, but I would not have that done on my cars. I would be fearful that the force of the fluid might dislodge something in the system. I simply have not seen enough evidence that this method is a safe route to go.

Dick Schneiders 1999 740i & 1991 525i

[weill]

Thanks for you communication about the transmission noise. It now seems progressive and louder when the transmission is cold, especially in cold weather. Should I have the fluid changed again at the dealer? Thanksl Weill

[Dick Schneiders]

If the fluid change you already had done used the proper fluid for your transmission, and was done properly, I don't think another fluid change will help. However, if they also changed the transmission filter (can only be done if they dropped the pan), then you need to try and find out if they used an OEM filter. If they did not, or if it can't be determined, then you probably should have the pan dropped again and look at the filter. The OEM filters will have the word "Filtran" on them. As I said before, there is a lot of documentation from owners and mechanics that state the use of aftermarket filters on these transmission can cause them to make a whining noise.

If you do this, and it is not difficult to do, first drain and save the fluid from the pan. Again, if they used the proper Esso fluid, which is a clear color, then it is very long term fluid and expensive, so you will want to reuse it.

Originally Posted by weill

Thanks for you communication about the transmission noise. It now seems progressive and louder when the transmission is cold, especially in cold weather. Should I have the fluid changed again at the dealer? Thanksl Weill

[Dick Schneiders]

I just re-read your original posting, and saw where the fluid change job cost you $100. That would indicate to me that they did not use the proper fluid, as it costs anywhere from $20 to $28 a liter, and if they simply do a drain and refill, even if they drop the pan to check or replace the filter, it will still take about 6 or so liters for the job. That adds up to more than the $100 just for the fluid.

It is not a given that your tranny will be damaged from using a different fluid, in the short run, but after a long period of time the possiblity of damage certainly increases. If I were you I would first have a serious talk with the shop that did the work and find out exactly what type of fluid that they used, and if they changed the filter. If the wrong fluid was used, then I think you really need to have the job done again with the proper fluid.

There are a other issues here, if the fluid is the wrong stuff. If they do a drain and refill, even if they drop the pan, they will only get out about 2/3 or less of the old fluid, as the tranny holds about 9 liters. The rest will stay in the torque converter. There are ways to get more of it out, but not all of it unless they do what is called a flush of the transmission (which I would never have done on one of my cars). If they added a different fluid to what remained of the original fluid, then the two fluids will most likely not mix well at all, and could cause your tranny to work improperly. If this is the situation, then at this point you will have a mix of two different fluids and really need to have as much of the old fluid removed as possible and replaced with the proper fluid. I really don't know if you should have a complete tranny flush to insure that all of the old, improper fluid is removed, but that might be the only way to get all of it out. You can do several drain and refills, with the proper fluid, while driving the car a bit between them and that will dilute most of the old fluid and you would end up with a high percentage of new fluid. However, you would still never quite get all of the old stuff out and it would be very expensive to do this over and over with the "liquid gold" that these transmissions use.

The correct Esso tranny fluid is a clear liquid, so you might be able to take off the fill plug (not the drain plug) and check the color of the fluid. The proper level of fluid should be right at the point where the fluid will drip out of the fill plug hole when the plug is removed.

I really don't have enough information to determine if the so-called complete tranny flush is bad for our transmissions, but have seen enough warnings from mechanics and techs to be leery of them. What they are concerned about is the possibility of the flush dislodging some particle or something that might get into a sensitive part of the transmission. I have been unable to prove to myself if this is a possibility or not, so I have avoided this process for my cars to date. It might be perfectly safe, and really is the only way to get all of the old fluid out of these transmissions.

Good luck with this.

[Dick Schneiders]

One other comment. I really should read all the responses before I respond.

The letter that one of the posters included from ZF, the maker of the transmission, mentions a Shell synthetic fluid. The car that was being addressed in that letter was a 1993 7-series. The recommended fluids were not the same for different versions of their transmissions, usually based on the year of manufacture. I am not certain of the cut-off point when the fluid changed, but for my 1999 740 the fluid is an Esso fluid, and not the Shell. As I recall, but you should do some research on this, the prior few years also used the Esso fluid. I am a new owner of the 7-series, only a few weeks, but have done quite a bit of research and also have read a lot about the E34 5 series which I have owned for quite a few years. In my reading, I do recall that there is some discussion about whether these two fluids are interchangeable, but I would always use the fluid recommended by ZF for the particular transmission I owned.

So, while I think your tranny should also use the Esso fluid, you should do some research to be certain that is the case. Both of these fluids cost about the same.

[Dick Schneiders]

Here is one link that discusses the different ZF transmissions and the fluids.

http://www.bmwseven.com/e38trans.html

And here is a link to the best overall site for E38 information I have found.

http://www.e38.org/

[weill]

So many thanks for your comments. I have noticed only the whinning sound, which makes me think my transmission is slipping, but I have not felt the slippage while the transmission is shifting.. I will check and see if the dealer used the OEM filter or if they reused the little O-ring and it was worn. I've owned several vehicles , SUV's , Cadillac, etc and driven them to over 200,000 miles and never gone into an engine or transmission. In one of your communications, you mention to not buy a new tranny. If my noise problem can't be resovled, would a better path be to purchase a factory remanufactured transmission? Have you had to replace a BMW tranny? Any idea of cost? Thank you once again. If all this help for me is too much, I'll understand. Thanks. Weill

[bennya]

Hi, This seems to be a very common problem with the model. I have bought a 740iL 1993 great car looks brilliant and drives extremely well. Last year we went up North (Queensland) for holidays. Prior to leaving I had the car serviced and told them they should do the trans aswell. They delivered the car to a trans service specialist. It seems this is an error when the car came back there it was that flamin noise. I investigated and asked what fluid they used, replied synthetic OK.

Thanks to this forum I now realise that the repairer did not use OEM filters and probably used the original O ring. I will resume my escapade to the service people after the xmas break. I am recomending this forum to all people that I know who have BMW's. I also have a 525i 1994