a huge problem..??

[jond0220]

okey i have a '97 saturn SC2 (manual). i have have the power i did, the car is useing twice as much gas (like vapors are coming from the exuast) and it idle's like it wants to cut off but wont

so i've replaced the spark plugs, spark plug wires, both coil packs, gutted the caty, replaced both o2 sensers, the air temp senser, and the cooiling temp senser (twice).. i've already checked the fuel injectors (their fine) and i cant find any body that can really halp me..

now here's the catch, it first started doing this when the heat was one (and not just on defrost but putting the heat on in general) then it just got to the point that it does it when you start the car up. now i went to autozone and got the diagnostic test done and all it says is that it's One of Three temp sensers bad.. i can only find 2 one the car- the air temp and the cooling temp..

if anyone has any ideas please tell me, im open to suggestions now..

signed a very confused and frustrated saturn owner..

[sierrap615]

sorry to say this isn't going to be easy with out seeing the car for myself.

there are only two temp sensor one your car, the Intake air temp(near the air filter), and the Engine coolent temp sensor(side of head) the one in the head tends to go bad (get the brass replacement, it last longer) when you replaced the ECT, did you ensure the connecter was clean? have you checked the air filter? carry more wieght? checked fuel pressure? fuel filter? when you checked the injectors did you check them for leaking? any SES light? checked coolent level? how long does it take to warm up? Idle RPM? when warm where is the temp needle?

[jond0220]

i thought there was only 2 temp sensers.. to answer the questions, yes i did make sure the connector was clean (when the problem presisted and i was replacing it the second time) i checked for that and Any kind of craks or anything wrong with the wires as far as they went.. and there also fine.. the air filter is also clean, i check it once about every 2 weeks (dust it off of any loose debre or anything and clean it reg.- K&N filter) and no more weight then normal, unless i put on a few pounds or so.. LOL the fuel pressure is fine also, my buddy scott and noah both checked it out (there just as curious and stumped as me) the fuel filter's been changed about 4k miles so far, and even when i changed it there was nothing of a result but a cleaner filter.. and as far as the injectors, i checked for leaks craks bumps anything.. and i also used the ses light.. as far as the coolent level, i i'm pretty parinoud about that and the oil level too for some reason.. and the coolent's already been flushed too.. when the car gets warm (it actually takes a little longer to warm up for some reason, but when it does its actually been a little hire then normal (i've always been curious about that) but i've been told by a couple of people that its because the car is telling it (or something) that its running too hot, so it takes longer to heat up by the gauge and thats why it seems hotter then normal by the gauge.. but now as far as the idle rmp's and the running rpm's, there's really no difference that i can notice at all, except that when idling its about (maybe a little more or less) 500rpm's less..
like i said, its a very stumbling question.. and i thank you again for trying to help me..

[sierrap615]

you clean that K&N with the special oil right? i don't get what you mean by you "used the SES light". the idle RPM should be no less then 800 RPM(i would be happier with 900/1000). the temp should be around middle or just before on the gauge. the only thing i can say at this point without hooking up a scantool to the PCM is that the thermostat may be bad(stuck open or opening to cold), that would cause a long warm-up time and in a very bad case a decrease in MPG, but to the point of double fuel useage seem extrime to me. (BTW, a gutted cat should throw a SES light)

[jond0220]

its really the only way to clean the air filter isnt it (with the oil and cleaner right?, its the only way i know how to.. not unless there's another way)
and my bad, i should have been a little more specific (im still trying to get used to having someone help me with tyhis that hasnt even seen the car yet) the normal rpm (at idle) are between (about) 850/950 (ever since i used full synthetic the idle rpm went down a little, but everything improved) now its around 800/850, with every once a few minutes it drops to about 600/700 (which at that point kinda sounds like it wants to cutoff but never will).. as far as the temp goes when i switched to full syn. the temp stayed at between 1/4 to 1/2 but never higher unless sitting for awhile.. now its right at the 1/2 point at normal running temp, but still takes the same amount of time for it to heat up to where the fan cuts on (about, gestimating time and all).. as far as throwing the light for the gutted caty, scott checked that about 2 days before i gutted the caty (autozone diagnostic said it was bad, plus i thought i could save a few bucks and gain very little hp for even cheaper lol) and changed the o2 senser next to it..
i've already replaced the thermostat, but do you think it could go bad within about 16/18,000 miles?? and could it really cause damage like losing about 1/2 the power ??

still confused, and sorry if im frustrating you, im just really curious and getting very worried that it might be an internal problem instead of simple stuff like this..

[sierrap615]

i just wanted to make sure about the filter, i can see someone just spraying the hose at it.

for the idle, you may want to remove the intake tubes and inspect the throttle body for carbon build-up, if there is any, you can bet your IAC, the guy that controls idle speed, is gunked up too. spraying it with some carb and choke cleaner should free it up.

the only job of the rear O2 is to make sure the cat is working. if it detects the cat is not doing its job via natural maulfaction or by being removed/gutted(both in your case), it will throw a SES light, and in some cases vehicle preformance will actually decrease. plus tampering with the cat or any emission device is illegal in any state(even though if you don't have emission testing its kindda hard to get caught.)

now you appairently are running overly rich, which even though the car is programmed to run rich during a cold start-up, running lean will make the engine VERY HOT.

right now we still don't know if the engine is to cold making it run rich, or if the engine is run rich making it cold. if possible can you go back to autozone and get the current codes read then post them here? also do you have a voltmeter/multimeter? i think our answer will be somewhere in the O2 readings. also while you are at autozone, ask them if their scantool can access the sensor readings, the front O2 sensor should go back and forth from 0.1 V to 0.9 V, and write down the long term and short term fuel trims (LTFT and STFT)

you're not frustrating me, i enjoy problems like this, thats why i'm here.

[jond0220]

well at least i actually found someone that im not really frustrating all that much with my car problems.. (to be honest im actually trying to go to school for machanics and stuff, thats kinda what im like.. but im limited to only my experience's other then that i don't try to guess or make a judgement)..

just wanted to make sure about the filter, i can see someone just spraying the hose at it.

for the idle, you may want to remove the intake tubes and inspect the throttle body for carbon build-up, if there is any, you can bet your IAC, the guy that controls idle speed, is gunked up too. spraying it with some carb and choke cleaner should free it up.
now about the caty emmisions, that i didnt really know.. i mean i know its illegal, but i thought it was only in the states the actually called for it on the emission tests.. well now i know and knowing my luck thats what the problem probely is (just cause i tried going the cheap route)..
as far as the engine'
s temp im not really sure. i wish i could tell you a round about but it probely wouldnt be close by that much.. but i have noticed that the heater puts out an extreme amount more heat Now then running normal.. (which im not complaning in those cold days lol)
i'll actually go by autozone before i go to work today, and get the codes posted here when i get off of work. now as far as a volt/multimeter, i can check to see if i have one laying around (my fiance's father might have one)
now you say that the answer might be in the o2 readings.. thats kinda funny cause Scott (my friend who is obsest with gm's and cheve's) said that because of the OBD11 that since i gutted the caty, that the o2 senser is readying that (something like)the air is too rich or clean or something like that and its telling the computer to use more gas or something.. (sorry its about 2 am and i just got off of work and im just getting over from having a horrible stomach virus..)

thanks again.. my fiance (Ashley) says thanks too.. one for giving me hope on actually fixing the car and two for actually talking to someone other then her about it (Ash isnt car literit at all, about anything) LOL

[jond0220]

sorry i havent been by autozone yet, but i will be going my before work tommorow (i kinda live pretty far away, and i was running late yeserday..)
i had a question though.. this problem (when it started) was doing this while the caty was bad.. and i replaced the o2 sensors before i gutted it, i gutted it a couple days after i replaced them thinking it was the caty instead (trying to be cheaper) and its acting the same before and after i gutted it.. and when i replaced the 02 sensor the autozone test showed that the o2 sensor wasnt coming up just the caty (the that went away) but when the 02 sensor was up it also showed that it had a "random mutipule misfire".. when i changed the o2 both went away..
so really my question would be do you still think that it could be the o2 sensor just wacting up or would it be like when i got the last test done that its 1 of 3 temp sensors bad??
just still wondering..

[sierrap615]

it could be ether or both, need the codes to tell, but if you don't have a DTC P0420 Catalyst System Low Efficiency i will be very surprized

[jond0220]

well i got the codes from autozone.. its alot more then the first time i got it done.. about a week or so before i posted this (it was Only the temp sensor), but now it shows
P0107- manifold absolute pressure sensor input below acceptable min. voltage.
P0118- Engine coolant temp sensor input above max. acceptable voltage.
P0122- throttle position sensor input below acceptable voltage range.
P0130- upstream oxygen sensor heater relay circuit malfuntion.
P0302- cylinder No. 2 misfire detected.
P0320- no reference signal from crankshaft position sensor detected during cranking.

which im still pretty confused on because i've already replaced the crankshaft position sensor about 12 to 15,000 miles ago. oh yeah, they said that they couldnt check the o2 sensor with that test.. well i hope that this actually helps with anything, cause im still stumped and dont realy understand to much of this.. and thanks again..

[sierrap615]

with that many problems, and with a common base, 5/6 are saying no sensor input, i have a feeling its just one problem affecting everything, most likey a bad connection somewhere, my wiring diagram does not show connections, but i should be able to get the right diagram tomarrow and tell you where to look.

the 5 biggest sensor inputs for fuel metering are the TPS, ECT, MAP, CPS, and O2. all 5 are listed in the codes, i'm surprized the car will run at all. no wonder you are having drivablity problems.

[jond0220]

LMFAO... hey im saying the same thing right now.. LOL well at least you have a pretty big idea about how much of a problem i've been facing with, and why im so frustrated..
if it'll help any i've already checked the temp wiring and haven't found anything wrong even with the connector, but i'll check again and i'll check in the Haynes manual i have about the rest of the wiring and check those.. it'll still help to get some input where to look exactly though.. and thanks again..

[sierrap615]

the Hanyes manual is very good, but nothing beats the OEM wiring diagram.

[sierrap615]

i checked and all of those sensors are wired directly to the PCM.

what i would do at this time:
1. inspect the rubber grommet in the firewall near the master cylinder that protect the wiring harness.
2. inspect wiring harness for cuts/other problems
3. inspect connection at PCM, check for an entire connector that is loose(manual transmissions have 3,autos 4. the O2, TPS, ECT, MAP and CPS all connect in connectors J2 and J3. wiring diagram will be posted later.

[sierrap615]

also check for pins that have backed out of the connector

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