just got a lesabre

[lakerfan1784]

hey... I just bought a 93 LeSabre Limited with 86000 miles. very clean car, appears to be well taken care of. Have a couple questions though.

Replaced the wires and plugs a couple days after I bought it for preventative maintenance, as well as the air filter. Now it is idling a little rough. Plugs are gapped .060, and the coils were tested, and are good. do you think it could be the fuel filter?

its also making a whistling sound, coming from the intake. my mechanic told me that sometimes crap builds up in the plenum, and that some plate inside it cant seat like it should.

and finally... its jerking slightly while cruising in overdrive, say around 50-63 mph, when the converter is locked, and going up a hill with the cruise on, or if I just put my foot down a little. Transmission fluid is full... mechanic said it could need a new torque converter clutch... if so, how much? any insight is appreciated

[creslevi]

I am by no means an expert, But my 94 had what I considered a stumble/miss condition while coasting /cruising but ran strong when I got on it, I frustrated over it for months (no check engine light till recently) when the check engine light started coming on regularly I had it re scanned and the code was EGR pintel circuit, I bought one used $45.00 (new $180.00)
put it on over a week ago and it hasn't missed since.
It's the best car I ever owned, now has 216,000 miles on it. Good luck
Rick

[Mechanic_of_URL]

I would check to make sure that the wires are in the right order first. (bad idle) Then I would look to see if the air filter is seated correctly, and that everything is fitting together like it should (whistle). I would ignore the TCC until you figure out if the wires are where they should be.

[avatar307]

*nod, nod* Definately ignore the transmission behavior until you fix the rough idling, as that will affect how the transmission shifts. Plus, there is likely nothing wrong with the transmission, they just behave like that. Gotta love automotive computers.

Oh, and if you buy a new torque converter for the transmission... over $100. Plus, you have to seperate the transmission from the engine... which will at the very least suck a very, very lot. (That is if you don't have to pull the engine completely out to do it.)

[lakerfan1784]

the wires are in order, and brand new. everything is tight under the hood, it is surprisingly clean. I am going to change the fuel filter, close enough to 90k now anyway... and after that run some fuel injector cleaner. I highly suspect the injectors are pissing instead of spraying like they should... also, I did some research, the transmission doesnt have to be moved, there is a plate that is taken off, and you have to have a special tool to remove the tcc... expensive dealer or tranny specialist job

[avatar307]

I believe you're refering to the Torque Converter Clutch Solinoid.

The Torque Converter is big donut looking thing that bolts to the flywheel of your engine and accepts the input spline shaft from the transmission. It is located within the transmission bell housing, which is solid casing.

You could pull part of the transmission out the side if you removed what I believe is called the "channel plate," that the solinoids bolt to on the side of the transmission. You could really screw a lot of stuff up anyway. But you would not be able to get the 14 inch torque converter unbolted from the flywheel, let alone through the 2 inch hole where the input shaft enters the bell housing.

I guess I could scan in 15 pages of disassembly diagrams to illustrate what I mean, but... Too much work... and my service manual is out in the car... blah.

[lakerfan1784]

yeah... dont worry about it... its not the transmission anyway, more than likely just the fuel injectors and filter. I will let you know how things work out

[avatar307]

I did some deep, deep, deep readining on the 4T60 transmission. You, of course, could not remove the Torque Converter from the side of the transmission. However, you could remove the 4th Clutch (sometimes called the Torque Converter Clutch I think).

To do so though, you'd have to remove the driver side drive shaft, transmission side pan and gasket, the oil pump, oil pump shaft, control plate, solinoids, and wiring harness, and the channel plate. At that point, the whole clutch assembly would fall out, along with a bunch of other really complicated gears, chains, and metal disks. It could be accompished, but it's not really something you'd want to do with the transmission still mounted in the engine compartment. Too many pieces, too many bolts, too many things that would be considered presision components.

Anyway. Checking the fuel system out is definately a good step. Recommended service interval on the fuel filter is never, they say it's supposed to last the life of the car. Personally, I think that's nuts, any car runs better with a new filter no matter what kind of filter it is.

Also, there is a fuel system pressure test point on the fuel rail (under the pretty plastic cover). With the right equipment, you can test the fuel system pressure right there (which will tell you if the fuel pump, fuel pump relay, and fuel pressure sensor are functioning correctly).

I'm always dumping injector cleaner in my gas tank. Seems to help a little bit... I'm still debating removing the injectors and cleaning them by hand, just so I can be completely satified they are working well. LOL

Also, in reference to creslevi's mention of the EGR valve. EGR is Exaust Gas Recirculation. The purpose of which is to introduce exaust gas from the manifold into the intake manifold to heat the intake air and provide a better fuel mix when the car is cold. If the valve is malfunctioning, for example staying open, it can cause misfires and cylindar detenations due to a super heated air/fuel mix.

It would be wise to make sure it is functioning correctly and the passages are not blocked or jammed open. I can probably find the procedures for checking it... probably... if you want them. I'm not sure if the 1993 is still a vacuum actuated EGR or electronically controlled... I'd guess vacuum, which is easier to check and also malfunctions more often.

As creslevi said, he had a similiar idling problem for a long time that the computer never reported. When it finially did, and he replaced the EGR valve, the problem was immediately fixed.

[lakerfan1784]

thanks for the info avatar, I am going to do the fuel system first... I will probably end up just pulling the fuel injectors and clean them anyway, just for something to do on a boring day... is there any specific way that you would recommend that I do it? I was told by a mechanic that I have to unplug the fuel pump relay, and get the fuel out of the lines, before taking off the rail, and pulling the injectors. I would suspect that I would need new gaskets for the injectors too. I want to get this taken care of soon, the week before thanksgiving I am supposed to drive it to chicago, and a couple weeks later to florida.

forgot to mention... I will probably end up changing the egr valve too... it sits on the drivers side front of the engine, almost in line with the throttle body. has a wire going into it too... although I cant remember where.

thanks for the info again

[avatar307]

You'll need to depressurise the fuel system (by removing the gas cap and depressing venting the pressure out of the pressure test point on the fuel rail).

Be sure to cover the test point with a rag to prevent fuel from spraying everywhere. Also, disconnect the battery and let the engine cool of before attempting it, so you don't start a fire.

The injectors are clipped to the fuel rail. When you remove the fuel rail, the injectors will likely pull out with it. Be sure you disconnct the electrical connections from the injectors.

The injectors will need their O-rings replaced after you remove them from the engine.

The wire coming out of the EGR goes back to the vehicle ECM/computer which controls the sensors and functions of engine/powertrain.

[beeaatch]

wow,ok whistling sound could be a variety of things,check all the basic stuff,could be a fan belt (most likely) if its worn and needs replaced what do you have to loose.ok next concern,jerking at cruising speed,possible egr fault,have same problem with mine but havent pulled egr yet to clean.check it out man...

[lakerfan1784]

this car is FWD, with a transverse engine... no fan belt... it does have a new serpentine belt though, along with an alternator and power steering pump. the whistling is random, and it definitely comes from the intake area. Might be a loose vaccuum as well. probably tuesday, I will pull the EGR valve, and replace it. If I have the time, I will also change the fuel filter.

Now, all of a sudden, the speakers in the drivers door stopped working... the car has concert sound II.

[avatar307]

The fuel filter will probably take less time then fiddling with the EGR, especially with the cleaning of carbon deposits. It's likely the fuel filter has quick connects on it... at least on one side. You'll still get gas everywhere though. LOL

I think the mechanic was right when it said the whistling is probably coming from your air intake. The air scoop could not be seated right. The air filter could be misaligned and letting a jet of air shoot by at high velocity.

If it's coming from closer to the intake though (which I expect it is if you can hear it with the car parked and idling) then it's almost certainly a loose/cracked vacuum line.

I'm going to replace all my vacuum hoses this week. I just noticed how bad they were, the fuel regulator line has almost desintigrated. I had to wrap it with electrical tape before I'd could stomach closing the hood. LOL

[lakerfan1784]

changed the fuel filter, and the egr valve, and it runs TONS better, and it jerks no longer.

[avatar307]

Ta-da!