1995 quad 4 - crank - crank - crank - no fire

[gmack221]

I have a 1995 Grand AM SE 2.3L quad 4 with electronic 4 speed auto, I bought the car as a fixer - uper, well that its been, bought it with the head missing, put a head from the yard on, got it all back together in no time. It cranks and cranks and cranks without even so much as a try to start.

Here's what I have put into it so far
Head (yard)
crank position sensor (new)
computer (yard)
coil packs, ignition module (yard)
water pump (new)
timing chain set (new)
plugs (new)
plug boots/plug wires (new)

Here's what I have diagnosed
-I have no power / noid light at the injector harness
-I have no power at the injector harness
-injector harness has no resistance
-there is no resistance between the plug for the injector harness & plug at the computer
-injectors all have the same resistance
-I have power going to the ignition module
-I have power to the computer on the red (always hot) wire
-all of the fuses in the fuse pannel are good (visual & resistance test)
-I have a good ground at the plug for the injector harness

Experts please help, this car is driving me nuts, is there something im missing? Im about a week from buying a new computer then if that doesn't work im going to have my buddies over for a car-b-que, I know its got to be something simple im missing, I was reassured that the coil packs came off a car that ran last week before I got the head, head gasket was fully intact, looked excellent, just a wrecked car.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

[Slade901]

I think the problem is the Ignition Coil Housing.

One way to find out would be remove the four spark plug boots and use a known good spark plug wire in place of the spark plug boots. This way, you can test for sparks on each end of the spark plug wires. (Note: The Ignition System metal cover and the Ignition Coil Housing must be secured with a rope dangling).

This is how I tested our vehicle for ignition problem and confirmed that only two were firing and the culprit was the Ignition Coil Housing. Again, I have to lift the Ignition System Cover/Igniton Coil Housing and secure it with a rope and then remove the spark plug boot and put a known good spark plug wires in place of the spark plug boot. I use an adjustable gap spark tester to check for sparks.

[gmack221]

how did you ground the whole system? from what I understand the cast metal piece that holds the coils, ignition module must be grounded for the coils to work.

the other problem I have is I replaced the whole assembly, coils packs, ignition module, & cast piece that holds it all, all came off one car and was supposed to have ran a week ago before they pulled the head for me.

If it was a simple as a ignition module I would be more then happy to pay the money for it to get it running. It just seems like it should either be the computer or the module, but I have tried both and nothing seems to be working, either a part I tried was bad, or there is something im missing.

[Slade901]

Originally Posted by gmack221

how did you ground the whole system? from what I understand the cast metal piece that holds the coils, ignition module must be grounded for the coils to work.

What I did is just removed the 4 bolts that hold the Ignition System Cover. Disconnected the main electrical connector to the Ignition System. Removed the 4 Spark Plug boot and put a known good spark plug wires and connected the other ends of the spark plugs wires to the spark plugs. Reconnected the main electrical connector to the Ignition System. Removed one spark plug wires from the spark plug and connected an adjustable gap spark tester and clip to a ground location where I can see the spark while I'm inside the vehicle cranking the engine.

First thing first, you need to verify that you have sparks.

Check the Crankshaft Position Sensor wires to make sure its wires is connected properly and not rubbing on the metal block. If the Crankshaft Position Sensor wire is rubbing to the ground then there would be no reference point for the Ignition Coil to fire.

[gmack221]

Ok, I have no spark either, no power to the injectors & no spark, you can rule out the ignition module & coil housing, I tried them today (new).
So to recap I have put the following parts on new
- ignition module
- coil housing
- crank sensor

I have tried a used computer

Im almost starting to think the unbelieveable, maybe somehow I got the timing chain a tooth off or something, I can't believe I could make such a mistake, I was so carefull putting them on, but I have tried almost everything else. I'm really not looking forward to ripping that side of motor apart again to verify its right, would take make it not spark? does the cam sensor play any part in this, or is it just to advance/retard the timing, could that be my problem part? my $250 deal is turning into a nighmare!

[Forkliftguy]

You should still be getting spark and fuel injectors even if the cam sensor is off a bit. I can't see that giving you absolutely nothing.

Just to bring myself up to speed here, do you have 12 volts at the injectors when the ignition is on? Do you have 12volts at the ignition module when the Ignition is on? Don't rely on the fuses to tell you. If you do have all the above, do you have constant power at the computer and power to the computer's ignition input when the ignition is on? If all those match up are your computer and ICM properly grounded? It sounds like a power issue to me for the fact that both parts are not working (injectors/spark). Maybe your computer is F'ed. But checks those items I listed first.


Marc

[gmack221]

I have power going to the ignition module, no power to the injectors, none, nada, no spark
to recap new
-ignition module
-coil housing
-crank sensor

anyone know where I can find a logic map for the quad4?
I would like to know what sensors it relies on before providing spark & fuel.

I know I have power to the computer on several wires, the red always hot wire is hot, anyone know what other wires need power?

I know there is something im missing, can anyone help me, you guys are the experts on this car! something tells me it may be the computer, but I was also sure it was the ignition module too, hate to invest another $100 on a shot in the wind, this was supposed to be a cheap car, next time I will put a v6 in, even with all of the electronics it would have been cheaper & easier.

[Forkliftguy]

I have the logic map for the 2.4 quad 4 with IDI (integrated distributorless ignition), basically it has no spark plug wires. And it's for 97 and up. I'm looking at it right now and the only thing I see aside from the computer is the crank sensor. According to my diagram on the main computer there will be an orange wire that is hot at all times, then a pink wire that is only hot when the ignition is on and a purple wire that also turns hot when the ignition is on. The ICM should also a wire (pink?) that becomes hot when the ignition comes on. I'm still pretty positive that from the sounds of things something isn't getting turned on and seeing the ignition power.


Marc

[gmack221]

any chance I could get an electronic copy of the logic map? if you have access to scanner I would appreciate if you could send it to [email protected]

I appreciate the description of the wires, I spent 4 hrs looking at a electronic diagram and couldn't come up with what you said in 30 secs.

as for the power to the ICM, I have that

as for the orange wire on the computer (always hot, yeah I have that)

when I get home tonight i'll check out the other two to make sure the computer is getting power from the ignition, if it is then It almost seems like it has to be the computer. just bothers me that was the second thing I tried (computer from the yard), if thats the problem then im never going to a yard again for electronic components.

I'll update when I know more

[Forkliftguy]

I don't have scanner, but my wife and I have shopping around for one! Doesn't help you right now though. I can try to relay info to you as best I can. Again, this book is for '97 and up so I'm not sure how different the engines are year wise.


Marc

[gmack221]

well I got my buddy thats a mechanic to stop over tonight, he helped me run some test, found out I had ignition power to the computer (thanks to your wire color help), also figured out I had no power to the main (always hot) wire at the computer. Figured out the ends of the fuseable links (by on the starter) were bad, he had to go, I ran and got new wire ends, soldered them on, put a little shrink wrap on them. I now have power to the computer on the main in line. I now have the two grounds at the injectors. I still have no power at the injectors, as a matter of a fact I have a ground there too. Since I have the two grounds that come out of the computer (at the injector plug) I assume that the computer is working, and the crank sensor is telling the computer to run the ground. now I just need to figure out why I have no power.

Hopefully my buddy stops back by tomorrow night. looking at the wire diagram in the manual I bought it looks like the power issue is one of two things, its either a bad oil pressure switch or a bad relay for the fuel pump. does anyone know what actually powers the fuel injectors? from what my buddy says the ground for the injectors is broke by the computer, based on the crank position sensor. my guess is since I can hear the fuel pump run its not ran by that relay. Did I mention that I hate electrical problems????

[Forkliftguy]

Yeah, electrical problems can suck. When you turn the key to run, One of the wires on the injectors will become hot and stay hot (I believe it is the gray wire at the injector, you can tell which wire it is though because all four injectors will have one of it's be the same colour as the rest of the injectors) wiresuntil the key is turned off. The computer sends the ground pulses to the injectors which makes them open up and allow the fuel to spray. If the computer is damaged or not powering up this will not happen.

[gmack221]

well just to update you, I finally got power to the computer, had to run a new wire from the fuseable link to the computer, I hope that wire didn't have a junction in it anywhere feeding anything else, if it did it doesn't anymore! For the first time I see the check engine light! wow the computer is fired up, but im still not getting any power to the injectors. I did a resistance test on the circuit from the oil pressure switch to the injector harness, it looks good. I have a ground at both the green and blue wires at the injector harness, yet when I manually run power to the the grey power out wire of the oil pressure switch I don't get a noid light at the injector.

I must have bought the car from h*&^, im still trying to get my buddy the mechanic back over to toss ideas with as to why im not getting any power at the injectors, or atleast to hook up his scan tool now that I have the computer up and running (I hope). im either going to get this running or have one heck of a good time with a baseball bat!

[Forkliftguy]

I've looked in my book and as far as the injectors are concerned (keep in mind I only have a diagram for '97 and up), the gray wires of the injectors run directly off the fuel pump relay just like the fuel pump does. When you turn on your ignition does the fuel pump kick in? And if it doesn't, does the fuel pump relay work?

[gmack221]

well the grand am finally fired tonight! As it ended up the original problem was the bad power wire to the computer, but on my way finding that I made a few mistakes. First mistake I made was I bent a few of the recepticles on the ignition module plug, oops I was just trying to measure ohms on the wires. Second I replaced the ignition module even though the one from the junk yard didn't fix it, the new module I got was bad, imagine that! Third I replaced the coil housing with a new one, that new one was bad. Lets just say my second guessing junk yard parts and trying too hard to fix a simple problem cost me alot of money. Im still not happy about spending $200 on junk new parts, but it finally runs!

thanks for the help guys, you gave someone who didn't have a clue a lot of good places to start, this problem just couldn't be solved over the net, after all it took my buddy who is an ASE certified mechanic 4+ hrs of being here to get it straightened out, thanks Mike!