Gun laws, we must meet in the middle

[a_hol06]

As i read a closed thread on gun laws, it seemed i saw a large spectrum of opinions. some much to radical, some much to layed back, and the occasional whose views mirror my own (which are right by the way). First let me start off with a little story that hits home to me personally.

My grandpa was returning home to Texas from out of state with his wife and stopped at a hotel in hmm alabama or louisiana. he always carried a gun with him, but kept the bullets separate from the gun. He carried the gun into the room, unloaded, hidden under a towel. His wife stopped in the front of the room and he continued on to the far side of the room. At the sound of his wife's scream, he turned and raised the gun as a large man approached him. The guy( unarmed) froze as he saw the gun. He turned and ran. Not a shot was fired and two lives were probably saved.

Those who reason that no guns at all equals no need for guns is sorely mistaken, my grandfather would have been defenseless without his againts the unarmed would be attacker.

Background checks should be mandatory for the puchase of any firearm.Guns stores already have this, but about gun shows? No. At least not in many states. Venders should be required to perform background checks to stop illegal purchase, though ive read in American Rifleman that guns purchased from guns shows constitute only a small number of guns used in illegal activities, but that small amount could be stopped. And who knows if the facts were...uh...molded on that one. Why not have background checks for ammunition? an illegal gun without bullets is as good as a 2 foot iron rod. sure some will be able to procure them still, but in my mind this would help.

I am a gun supporter, owner, and reader of american riflemen, but we must come together with commen sense solutions to see effective results. maybe some wont realize this until something happens to you or someone you know that may make you think.

Many more things to add, but i have to get to bed.


TO ALL WHO MAY RESPOND, PLEASE STAY RESPECTFUL TO EACH OTHER AND SHOW YOUR FEELINGS WITHOUT INSULTING. WE ARE ALL AMERICANS AND WE MUST STAY UNITED TO STRIVE. ''A HOUSE DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF CANNOT STAND"

[aloharocky]

When I bought a pistol I had to wait three days for a background check. No problem at all. But I still understand why some gun owners don't want the information held by the government. Information is gathered to be used at some point, by persons unknown. History shows that gun control is usually mis-used and hurts only legal gun owners. Ever met a crook that complains about gun laws?

[a_hol06]

Originally Posted by aloharocky

Ever met a crook that complains about gun laws?

Obviously not, that is why reform is necessary, because it is not as effective as it should be. The government has the information they need already, i.e. past arrests and permanent record, just need name and social security number at sale to call it in and check you out.oh and proof of i.d. make it harder for criminals to acquire guns, and also harsher punishments for those who blatently violate the law.

[lazysmurff]

i wholeheartedly agree. as a libertarian, i believe there should be no bans on the type of guns we can buy. if i want a tech-9 (for whatever reason i would...apparently a waste of agun) i should be allowed to have it

if i pass a background check (carrying it legally and owning it are two entirely different things.)

the fact of the matter is this. guns exist. taking guns off the open market only means law abiding citizens cant get guns to defend themselves or for sport. but criminals can and will get them. like anything else, a trip to the big cities with enough money and you can buy anything.

[Franko914]

I agree with background checks and a waiting period (which will be reduced once a nation-wide database is realized and made readily availabe to law enforcement agencies and licensed gun sellers), after all, I have nothing to hide (in my background, that is) as do the significantly large majority of law-abiding citizens. Others still disagree because of the Big Brother notion, and in this day and electronic age of terror and stolen identities, it may not be Uncle Sam we should be worried about.

Yes, guns have been around long before the automobile came into the scenery. They are both woven into the American fabric/psyche, each serving different purposes to their owners and no one can say what is right or wrong for others -- for this, we have guidelines, rules and laws (and laws have been passed in error, though few, by both legislative branches)

Banning one or the other will not work: The Prohibition of Intoxicating Liquors (18th Amendment) was eventually repealed, noble as its intention was.

Fabian Franklin wrote in What Prohibition Has Done to America:
"The country was jockeyed and stampeded into the folly it has committed; and who can say what may be the next folly into which we shall fall, if we do not awaken to a truer sense of the duty that rests upon every member of a lawmaking body--to decide these grave questions in accordance with the dictates of his own honest and intelligent judgment?"

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by a_hol06

The guy( unarmed) froze as he saw the gun. He turned and ran. Not a shot was fired and two lives were probably saved.

Those who reason that no guns at all equals no need for guns is sorely mistaken, my grandfather would have been defenseless without his againts the unarmed would be attacker.

Interesting hypothesis, however I can't see that the presence of a man in a hotel would automatically result in two deaths,feel free to elaborate as to what the guy was doing there.The fact that he was also unarmed makes it difficult to believe that he was intending to commit a crime,and the fact that he left immediately a gun was pointed at him indicates no more than a healthy dislike of getting shot at.

I can just imagine the poor old hotel janitor getting home and saying to his wife...."Hell we get some mad fools in the hotel,some crazy old Texas couple came in,she starts screamin' an' he pulled a damn gun on me......."

TO ALL WHO MAY RESPOND, PLEASE STAY RESPECTFUL TO EACH OTHER AND SHOW YOUR FEELINGS WITHOUT INSULTING. WE ARE ALL AMERICANS

Actually, we're not.Some of us come from countries where gun ownership is viewed completely differently,and would love to know more about why it is deemed essential by some folk to keep killing machines in their houses...

[Franko914]

Originally Posted by taranaki

<snip>
Actually, we're not.Some of us come from countries where gun ownership is viewed completely differently,and would love to know more about why it is deemed essential by some folk to keep killing machines in their houses...

Essential for self-defence, but also handy for hunting, fun for target shooting, good for investing, and satisfying for collecting.

[driftu]

quick question. Why would your grandfather be defence less without a gun?

my grandpa had guns. he removed all the firing pins, excpet for the gun he hunted with. he never need them for defence. he always told that a gun is a useless tool. if it can't be solved with fists then why would choose the cowards way out.

as far as criminals go. If they have a gun then chances are your dead any way. what good does it do you. none besdies turning a problem from bad to worse. If you notice they have a gun pointed at you and you reach for yours then BAM. sorry you loss try again. it's just as easy to get your money when your dead.

If they doen't have a gun and pull it. they continue the advance and you shot, congrats thats man slaughter and you are now the criminal.

[Rbraczyk]

Guns do not kill people. People kill people. Nonetheless, guns are basically killing machines. I mean guns can be fun, but the self defense reasoning you give us is basically you want to show that killing someone is the end of it. Put down the gun, but up your dukes, and kick someones ass through your own power.
Carry/conceal is for pussies.

[a_hol06]

Why do so many of you refer to guns as "death machines"? why do you have a "death machine" parked in your driveway? why do some of you probably have "death liquid" ice cold in a cooler on game day? How many lives a year do vehicles and alcohol take? Guns do kill, but countless objects which we would laugh at the thought of outlawing, take lives too.

And are some of you suggesting that a quite aged senior couple take on, hand to hand, a strapping young lad with a large build? maybe in his day, but at 70+, i dont think so.

and in response to the proposed possibility that no harm was intended, i asked my mom to recount the story to me, and my grandfather's wife had been shoved onto the bed. oh, and they werent returning, they were on their way to Georgia.

for those of you who are taking the anti-gun attitude in this topic, is there some personal experience which is giving you this outlook?

[indyram]

I am strongly against most gun legislation that has been brought forth. I do however agree with some of it. I have grown up in northern MN where you are brought up to use guns for many things. I hunt deer, bear, small game, game birds, target practice and am a firm believer in self-defense.

The way it works in my county much like the rest of MN is you have to get a permit to buy from your local jurisdiction. They (either sherriff's dept. or local police dept.) run the background check for your permit to buy, which is free. It has to be renewed every year. They also run the CCW permit, which involves taking an approved course, and very tight standards have to be met, along with the approval of the Sherriff himself.

Besides the permit to buy, which you must have in order to buy a pistol, you must submit an application to the ATF upon purchase. This is done immediately over the phone. Once they get the approval you are good.

This system of double checks ensures that law abiding citizens are ok by high standards (IMO) to buy a pistol.

I do believe that you should have to show your permit to buy, to buy pistol ammo as well. If you don't own a pisol, you have no reason to buy the ammo. Or maybe it is being bought for an illegally owned pistol.

I do believe also that you should have to have a permit to buy to buy from a gun show as well. Whether it be a pistol or ammo.

On the subject of assault weapons. I see no reason for someone to own a fully automatic weapon. Yeah I do admit it's fun for target practice, if you like to go through a box of shells in a few seconds. Assualt rifles yes, but not fully automatic.

We do need a little reform with the current laws that we currently have. One of the biggest things is that there must be a level for everyone. Laws reguarding guns, I think should be done at the federal level to ensure that they are consistent across the board.

We also need to increase the penalty across the board for crimes involving deadly weapons, not just guns but knives and others as well. We also need to impose much more education in general, to help stop the problem from the start.

I know that we are a long ways from where we should be reguarding violence, however people really need to look at what works and what doesn't. Looking at other countries is not the right idea, we have a society like no other.

[YogsVR4]

Background checks at the time of purchase should be required for both public and private transactions (in the same way automobile titles are transfered). Its one of the few areas that I think the government should be used to identify people who are felons, probational, mentally unbalanced or non-citizens. No law abiding citizen who wants a weapon should be denied one.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by indyram

I know that we are a long ways from where we should be reguarding violence, however people really need to look at what works and what doesn't. Looking at other countries is not the right idea, we have a society like no other.

You were doing fine until your last sentence.
Looking at other similar countries will tell you the US has something very seriously wrong; not just with gun laws but the society in general.

Similar, democratic nations with similar infrastructure have a fraction of the gun related murders that the US has.
Why does the US have more than 10 times the number of per capita firearms deaths of Canada and Australia?

Why do Americans put up with this massively high death rate?

In my country, in western Europe in New Zealand and in Australia, the vast majority of people NEVER even consider they might need a gun for personal protection.
These societies are fundamentally different in terms of substantially lower levels of violent crime. People feel safer because they ARE safer. Guns just are not required for personal protection.

Canada is awash in guns (mostly long guns) The official count is 7 million guns among 31 million people. But we don't shoot each other with them.

I am always surprised at how American society takes a very tough view on keeping society and its people safe, on environmental protection, on automobile safety and on anti-terrorism efforts, but freely allows its citizens to be murdered with guns at a staggering rate. I have always liked the US and an deeply saddened to see its people do this to each other.

BTW I am not anti gun; I own several. I am just anti -murder.

[driftu]

Originally Posted by lurker rex

Quick question for you...Exactly what is some big stranger who's trying to steal your wallet trying to solve? It's not some backyard propertyline thing he wants to argue about, or who's gonna win the World Series...he wants your wallet, your money and who knows what else?

i've been robbed before. the guy didn't need a gun either. twice my size with a knife. i gave him my money, he left no one got hurt. i was out 40 bucks. well worth my life.

Originally Posted by lurker rex

If what can't be solved with fists? Did some big guy ever approach your grandpa and grandma late at night at some hotel, making your grandma scream? If you heard your grandma scream in fright and you had a gun, would you still want to solve something with fists if the guy is a lot bigger than you? What if you were an older man, a senior citizen...with grandchildren to think about?

he would say "stop over reacting woman". then get up ask buddy what he is doing. then he would cooperate. no sense being stupid by pulling a gun on a guy that you have no idea what he is capable of.

Originally Posted by lurker rex

I've been a martial artist for over 30 years, but I guarantee you in a life or death situation I would use a gun if I had one.

really what discipline?

Originally Posted by lurker

People see too many movies, they think they can do some Jean-Claude Van Damm kick and knock out everyone in the room. In real life bad guys don't die that easily.

i agree with that. on the same hand you got too many cowboys out there that think a gun is the answer to every problem.

[a_hol06]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Looking at other similar countries will tell you the US has something very seriously wrong; not just with gun laws but the society in general.
.

Quite true. people always try to blame the amount of gun ownership or gun laws as the core problem, and as the difference between the U.S. and other countries murder rates. but what it does all come down to is society. As MagicRat said, and ill try to quote as closely as possible, "peole dont need a gun to feel safe because they are safe". It seems to me that rural americans will more often than urban americans feel safe. Perhaps its small town values or somethin, but many americans cant feel safe at night without an alrarm system in thier house and a gun by thier bed, but for good reason. I dont have the numbers with me now, but crime rate in america is terrible. and it is not the guns fault, it is the people. the gun is no more harmful than the hands it is in.

How can society be changed though? How can we prevent future, and stop present criminals? Movies? Neither I nor any of my friends felt like robbing a store after seeing a movie about criminals, but maybe younger children are influenced by such movies. One thing seems obvious to me, increased penaltys to criminals would lower crime rate. WHat does a guy who arms a gas station with a gun have to serve? A few years? why not a minimum of 10? i know when i go out with friends the more severe the threat im given by parents, the less likely i am to do what i shouldnt.

OH and MagicRat, i saw something on the history channel and you will probably be able to answer. In Canada, I think all handguns and automatic rifles, and maybe automatic shotguns, are banned, is that right? if not what is the situation.