ideas please...turbo or supercharger?

[93/01alaLUDE]

ive got a 93 prelude si w/ a 01 h22a4 vtec that only has about 6000 miles on it...which would be better turbo or super? and what all do i need to do to get it FI ready? I heard you can run on about 7 psi stock and not damage your engine...is this true?

[greenmonkey]

turbo will give you more power in the end but a super is easier to put on. yes you will have to beef up your engine to run any boost higher than that. but please use the freaking search engine, there are hundreds of threads about this already.

[eckoman_pdx]

6-7 psi properly tuned should fine for your H22 motor. Don't run too much higher than that though on a stock motor, but 6psi, maybe 7 is fine...

As for Superchargers vs turbochargers, Roots blowers like the Eaton based JS supercharger are ineffiecent, and can only run very minor boost, around 4psi, without buying their upgrades. They also are nowhere near as effeicent as a good cyntrifugal SC or a good tubro. Even the best roots blowers are in the low 60% effieceny range, which is a downright awful effieceny number for turbos and Cyntrifugal SC's.

A cyntrifugal sc is basically the compressor part of a turbo driven by a step-up gear drive (or something similer, like a belt drive). This drive is driven by a shaft. The amount of boost is directly proptional to the engine rpm, with the HP and Torque peaking @ redline. This is done to prevent compressor surge. In a turbo, which is exhaust driven, when the proper psi level is reached, the exhaust gases by-pass the turbo into the downpipe to prevent it from spinning any faster and stuffering compressor surge...this is how your turbo will say at, say, 8psi from 6200 rpm until redline and not contuine to have the boost level rise. In a cyntrifugal sc, there are no exhuast gases spinning the turbine...the shaft connected tot he crack spins the compressor. You can't disconect the shaft for the crank, gear box or belt drive once max boost is reached...this means is peak boost was achived eariler in the rpm band, the boost level would contuine to "surge" or raise. By having the boost peak @ redline, this dangerous problem is overted. However, the end result is lower torque numbers than a turbo, until peak boost at redline. This also results in significant "boost lag" (you know it better as "turbo lag." Boost lag is a better term, since is refers to the lag time that can exsist until the noticable on-set of bost occurs). A Cyntrifugal SC tends to be very laggy, with noticable boost on-set no occuring until you are a ways into the rpm band. The the peak HP numbers can be good, but this power isn't really available until farther into the RPM band.

A turbo on low boost will give you good power and torque. Moreover, running a small turbo and you properly size the turbo, you can significantly decrease or eliminate noticable boost lag. Turbo sizing can effect the response of the turbo greatly, so it is important to size the turbo properly for the app. In this case, a good small turbo should get you to an 6-8psi level safe for your motor, without much noticabe lag. It should also produce good HP and torque numbers, which are much lower in the RPM band (meaning much more usable) than the Power numbers from a Cyntrifugal SC, where they occur @ redline.

[nicotine251]

[quote=eckoman_pdx]6-7 psi properly tuned should fine for your H22 motor. Don't run too much higher than that though on a stock motor, but 6psi, maybe 7 is fine...



im running 8 psi on my stock internaled prelude....it depends what turbo kits you get, my Fmax turbo kit was set at 8psi.......and you can always raise the boost via boost control......as for superchargers go some are good sh%t. compared to a greddy turbo kit, on a 2001 honda prelude, on a dyno test. a jackson sc got 224hp at the wheel, while the greddy kit made 193hp.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by nicotine251

im running 8 psi on my stock internaled prelude....it depends what turbo kits you get, my Fmax turbo kit was set at 8psi.......and you can always raise the boost via boost control......as for superchargers go some are good sh%t. compared to a greddy turbo kit, on a 2001 honda prelude, on a dyno test. a jackson sc got 224hp at the wheel, while the greddy kit made 193hp.

8 psi is getting to te safe limits of boost in a an H22 with stock internals, 8 can be done of course, but I wouldn't run much higher. Just because some kits CAN effectily produce more boost than this, true, doesn'tmean it's the safest option for longevity, epecially when considering the H22's thinner cylinder walls.

As for 225 vs 195 numbers, I explained this for you in the OTHER thread you tried to mention this in...

As I said in that thread...

The Jackson Racing SC wasn't left alone, that's for sure. It deifinatly had some of their "upgrades," whether it be water injecotr or some type of cooling or the fuel delivery. The Greddy "Kit," isn't much of a Kit. IMO, it's the worst Turbo kit on the market, espiecally in base from.

This is why SOOO many companies choose it as their "basis" to compare their supercharger to. It comes with nothing particlarly, stripped down. No intercooler at all, you have to even by a seperate BOV more often than not. This results in not much extra power until you buy these "extras" that are not part of the kit.

A good kit meanwhile, wheter it be Edelbrok, Revhard, Drag, Tubronetics, mpost of these not only INCLUDE the intercooler in the kit, but also include the BOV and other parts missing from the greddy "kit." These are all extra purchuses on the greddy kit.

The result is simple. Get the Jackson Racing SC, add liquid intercooler, water injection, anything to help there. Add athe fuel system delivery and managment upgrade. This allows for higher boost levels and better fuel delivery. Now I have known of cases where they have used a higher octane gas than ordinary supreme to allow for a little more boost in the tests, etc to nump up power.

Now conversly, use a greddy kit as the turbo comparison. A well known name, even among people without a clue. It comes in an absolute base from, barely enough to even call a "kit" IMO, no intercooler, BOV is extra. The also use what is IMO a dated design in their Mitsubishi turbo. This SERIOUSLY limits the power and boost capibilties out of the box. Now dyno that and compare. Of course the Jackson SC will have more power in this case. Even though the Greddy "KIT" in use was sold as a kit, it in not really complete. This alows then to compare dynos with a turbo "kit" and show more power. Many oridnary people will not know what just went on, andf how they went about planning the test to achive the results.

NOT ALL TURBOCHARGERS AND TURBO KITS ARE EQAUL!!! There are MANY factors that effect the output of kit.

Likewise, not all SC's are eqaul.

I can assure you, if they compared the Jackson Racing SC to a good complete turbo kit, or even a good DIY one, they WOULD NOT put out more power. I can guarentee you that dyno number for the greddy was straight out of the box, which is an INCOMPLETE KIT, no matter what they say. Selling a "Kit" where the intercooler and BOV sare extra is NO KIT!!! Of course they wil compare they SC to this "kit," it's incomplete and as a result can't put out anywhere near the power numbers a Turbo kit should. But most average people won't know this, they'll just see "hey, it outperformed a name brand Turbo I've heard of. APC is a name brand too, but that doesn't mean they sell great and complete products.

Don't believe everything you read in magazines. If you do, you'll also end up belieivng "K & G Racing's Direct Power System," or DPS for short, creates extra power and really works. I mean, Import Tuner and Turbo & High Performance Magizine say it does, they even show Dynos, so it must be true!!!

Anyone that's been around here for ANY amount of time at all KNOWS the DPS was the BIGGEST scam around and remembers it. Just because the magazines CLAIM it is great and creates power doesn't make it true. The DPS is a scam, always has been, no matter what they try to make you believe. Don't Believe everything you read, just because it's printed in a magazine or on some show.

[nicotine251]

The Jackson Racing SC wasn't left alone, that's for "sure. It deifinatly had some of their "upgrades," whether it be water injecotr or some type of cooling or the fuel delivery. The Greddy "Kit," isn't much of a Kit. IMO, it's the worst Turbo kit on the market, espiecally in base from."


i agree with you on that qoute, most companys don't offer you a intercooler, bov.......and yes greddy is the worst turbo kit made ( thats why there street legal).

[Whathits14]

Greddy...is the shittiest kit maker I have ever seen. Yes, its a complete bolt on kit, and when put on, you will have a functioning turbocharger. Doesn't mean its good or does what a good turbo should. I drive a talon which comes stock with a turbo, and when looking at upgrades saw the horrible 18g setup they have for eclipses talons and lasers. First off, all it has is a turbo, intake tube and connectors. Nothing else. Nothing to compensate for fuel (options for a greddy programmed computer) No boost control, not to mention they have the stock gate so low that without boost control the turbo is innefficient and HORRIBLE! Think its 12 psi.....18g gets good around 16psi all the way to 25. The 18g is a big turbo...400whp capable. The stock turbo flows 290cfm and the greddy 18g flows 600cfms. Twice the stock turbos max flow in an upgrade kit, without ANY supporting mods. All this kit will do is increase turbo lag, and shorten the lifespan of your engine. Minimal hp gains. To properly turbocharge any car that was not turboed from the factory, you need a fuel system upgrade for anything over basic boost and without running your injectors way past 80% IDC which is usually past the safty "zone". Exhaust is important, because your stock exhaust is usually tiiiiinnnnny. Basically, what I am trying to say is that turbos are great, but only if done right. Stay away from Greddy. Supporting mods are nessecary for any car upgrading/installing aftermarket turbos.


Info on turbos:
http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184138 article I wrote for dsm cars....basics are always the same but some differnces here and there. Tried to make along the lines of what I thought "turbos for dummies" would be like.

http://www.turbomustangs.com/turbotech/main.htm *

*Everything you need to know about turbos....you better have some college physics to understand a lot of this, written for very "educated" people with big werds.

How to read compressor maps for turbos....use this to figure out a good turbo for your car...more flow is not always better so learn about turbos before you use this

http://www.stealth316.com/2-3s-compflowmaps.htm

Turbo compressor maps:

Actual maps for individual turbos:
http://www.hexfiles.com/resources/compressor_maps/
http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/#garrett

Also in those sites are some supercharger maps.

I'm a turbocharger guy, so gotta bash on superchargers a little here. Power consumption can be massive. Big superchargers eat upwards of 80 horsepower! What would YOU do with 80 HP? However, superchargers are GREAT...for cars that were made for them.. I love superchargers on Cobras, mustangs, muscle cars, but superchargers on hondas are like altezzas on a 69 vette- just plain gay. BUT turbochargers are ultimatly better. No real argument against that...there really isn't, at least not an intellegent one. They can put out more horsepower, intercooling is usually easier, they generate less heat to the engine, require no power to run- only exhaust to spin the turbine. More efficient, can boost more (anyone seen a sc boost 50+psi? If you have damn, let me know. HX 40 rules) And, best of all, they are way cheaper than superchargers.

Turbochargers take time to spool, eg to get power. Superchargers have it on tap. Turbos can spool from 2300rpms on a 2L motor(stock t-25, dsm 4g63 engine), to starting to spool at 5.5K and beyond. The bigger, usually the longer it takes to spool. On most street cars (imports) we will build full boost before a supercharger. I get full boost at 3.4K, right now is 15psi, but will be 22 later.(>300whp anyone? muwaha) whens the last time you saw a supercharged import get 15psi at 3.4K?. Turbo spool will be faster on a car with larger displacement. A 4.6L mustang has no problem boosting twin 54 trims(big fuckin' turbos.) in totally street driven form while putting down 600 hp.

If you have any questions/want to bash me/correct me, please drop me a PM

[Greenblurr93]

Umm... old thread?

[superbluecivicsi]

2 more months and it would be ancient.

[honda_racing101]

WTF? He's not even a noob. He should know better.