Po171/ Po174

[mom30075]

I have searched and read some posts about the PO171/174 codes. I own 99 Ford Windstar. I had $800 of work done 15 months ago, Intake gaskets, Throttle Body gasket, Intake maniforld, PCV valve, fuel inj. maint, etc.
Light recently came on, w/ above codes. Goodyear said the MAP sensor was bad and replaced. Light came back on 6 days later. I can't locate any discussion so far about the above codes that suggest the MAP sensor. Most of the discussion is in relation to the work that was done 15 months ago. How aggravated should I be w/ the MAP sensor replacement at $200. Was it completley unnecessary???
Please advise how to handle Goodyear
Clueless MOM, THANKS in advance

[12Ounce]

Good for you for knowing your exact alpha-numeric codes. Unfortunately, many folks aren't so exact .. and rely on some mechanic's or parts salesperson's "diagnosis".

Your particular codes have quite a list of possible causes ... but I don't read any being the MAF sensor itself. So I think you have a good argument and should be able to cause Goodyear some discomfort ... hopefully getting your money back.

You can get the list of possible causes by going to Ford service dept and borrowing a copy of Powertrain Control/Emissions Diagnosis Service Manual (applicable for your model) and looking under Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC) Descriptions.

If you want to send me a private message giving a postal address, I will copy and send the pertinent pages.

As far as the gaskets go, be aware that there are "upper" and "lower" intake gaskets. Most mechanics probably do just the upper hoping that all of the problem is in just the "upper". In fact, it probably usually is.

[mom30075]

Also, I specifically asked Goodyear to spell out what needed replacing, he said MAP sensor (manifold Absolute Pressure) I asked for copies of the Code printout, one copy mentioned contaminated MAF and the tech wrote down Baro pressure of 141 before and 150 after new "MAP" installed. I just called Ford dealership asking for the price on the "MAP" sensor and he could not locate it for the 99 Ford 3.8L. So did Goodyear actually replace a MAF, even though they told me MAP and the Goodyear invoice has it listed as MAP sensor also. do you know if there is a MAP sensor on this car.
Thanks is advance!

[rodeo02]

Originally Posted by mom30075

Goodyear said the MAP sensor was bad and replaced. Light came back on 6 days later. I can't locate any discussion so far about the above codes that suggest the MAP sensor.

This is probably a ridiculous question , but do the 1999-2003 3.8L's even have a MAP (manifold air/absolute pressure) sensor?? I thought the fuel pressure regulator takes care of the need for a MAP sensor on newer cars?

THANKS!
Joel

[lewisnc100]

I don't see a MAP in the list of parts either, even when searching for parts with "pressure" or "manifold". Any chance they listed a part#? Also even if they changed the MAF instead that would provide a voltage reading to keep the MAF at 200F indicating the air flow, I'm confused how they would take a before and after barometric reading from that sensor. Maybe 12ounce has insight on that.

If they did all the work you mentioned in your original post but did not change the bolts to the new versions then the symptoms as described in the TSB are still there.

[mom30075]

The Good year invoice only lists Product Code 047-200, MAP Sensor, I would assume that is a Good year number.
The Code print out copies I received look like "print screen" copies, shows the 171 and 174 on one page, next copy shows
2) CHeck Baro frequency, if unusually low for your altitude, sensor may be contaminated;
Baro(Hz) _____________148

The next page shows
Drive symptoms or DTCs may accompany a contaminated MAF. Baro PID is PCM caluclated
Baro(Hz) ____________148

Handwritten below by the tec is "141" circled, then "150 after new MAP sensor"

IN MAy 2003 the Goodyear invoice shows the follwing
Lower & middle intake gaskets
Upper intake gaskets
IMRC
IMR
Remove intake and Decarbonize ports
PCV valve
fuel injection maint

(can't tell about the new bolts, I assume if replaced there would be a seperate line charging me for them??)
THANKS!!!

[lewisnc100]

Originally Posted by mom30075

(can't tell about the new bolts, I assume if replaced there would be a seperate line charging me for them??)
THANKS!!!

They would definitely be spelled out as a separate line since they are a Ford specific item and pretty expensive. When they took everything apart and put it back together they torqued it down and probably made a new seal, but without the new bolts it was eventually going to leak again. Sounds like they just took the scattershot approach hoping something in that list was going to clear the codes.

What really surprises me is the MAP since we've pretty much concluded there is no MAP in your vehicle. The tech filled out some numbers on barometric pressure and I'm really curious where those came from and what they replaced. Should be fun to go back and ask the manager and the tech to come out to your car and point out the MAP they installed.

[mom30075]

Originally Posted by lewisnc100

They would definitely be spelled out as a separate line since they are a Ford specific item and pretty expensive. When they took everything apart and put it back together they torqued it down and probably made a new seal, but without the new bolts it was eventually going to leak again. Sounds like they just took the scattershot approach hoping something in that list was going to clear the codes.

What really surprises me is the MAP since we've pretty much concluded there is no MAP in your vehicle. The tech filled out some numbers on barometric pressure and I'm really curious where those came from and what they replaced. Should be fun to go back and ask the manager and the tech to come out to your car and point out the MAP they installed.

Question on the bolts, should I have expected Goodyear to know about these Ford specific/special bolts. Would it be reasonable to expect Goodyear to replace w/ new bolts for parts only cost, no labor since they didn't do it right the first time.
Oh, I will definitely be asking the Mgr to show me exactly what was replaced, I've already met w/ the Mgr for other issues, I'm finding a new mechanic as soon as this is resolved. Better yet, maybe I can convince my husband to start doing repairs again!

[lewisnc100]

Originally Posted by mom30075

Question on the bolts, should I have expected Goodyear to know about these Ford specific/special bolts.

Unfortunately probably not, if you had the work done in 7/2003 it would have been before the TSB was released on 8/18/2003. Regardless of this however, I think you should have a talk with the manager over the apparent fix detailed in the TSB and the many parts and services they performed that had nothing to do with the cause of your P0171/P0174 error codes. Highest on the list is the replacement of a MAP that does not exist on your vehicle and a tech marking readings taken from the old and new MAP. If they claim it was a mistake and it was really the MAF then there are no barometric readings, just voltage so not sure what the tech was reading. The price sounds about right if they replaced the MAF, but the TSB is pretty specific that the MAF is not the cause of this problem. Good luck on getting a partial refund and more importantly your issues with your Windstar fixed.

[12Ounce]

Mom
I agree with the others' comments on the MAP not being on your model. (Quite frankly, I thought you were making a "typo"). Your service center is exhibiting "confusion" at the least.... and perhaps something worse.

The special bolts that were mentioned are isolator bolts #3F2Z-9S479-AA, 8 req'd, approx $8 ea. The current engineering issue are green in color. These sealing bolts are considered "the" component to be replaced in an upper manifold gasket job. They would also be included in a "lower".

Please edit your email address out of your post. It will only get you spam. I can't use it anyway as I don't currently have a scanner. If you have a USPostal address you can share with me, send me a private message... and I will keep it private.

[DRW1000]

The MAF can be a cause of lean codes.

Anyway................In the interest of repairing the car I would convince your husband to start working on cars again. You (or he) should be able to repalce the bolts without too much disasembly. If he is comfortable with a wrench and owns a torque wrench I think the new bolt installation can be done in a couple of hours.................throw in a 1/2 hour break for a cold one and 3 hours should be plenty of time.

Good luck

[lewisnc100]

Originally Posted by DRW1000

The MAF can be a cause of lean codes.

Absolutely, but there is no way a tech is going to take before and after barometric readings from a MAF, only voltage. Plus the most likely cause of P0171/P0174 in a 99+ Windstars are the problems discussed in the TSB and it is pretty specific on the MAF not being something you should be looking at (at least initially):

Do not replace PCM (Powertrain Control Module), MAF (Mass Air Flow), or HEGOs (Heated Oxygen Sensors), as these parts are not the root cause of the lean codes conditions described.

But just to confuse the conversation a little more, check out the Ford step #5 of replacing the MAF:

Remove the MAP sensor plate and MAF sensor from the outlet side of the air cleaner.

[DRW1000]

I agree totally with you Lewisnc100. I wasn't trying to disagree with anything mentioned previously. I just wanted to make the statement that it is possible for a MAF to cause lean codes.

I have the same 171/174 codes and I firmly believe I have the repairs on the TSB to perform.

I did check my MAF though...................lol

[mom30075]

Ok Guys, just send some more advice to totally confuse me even more

I'm trying to decide if I should request my money back for the MAP replacemnet (or was it really a MAF) ($200).

History: May 2003 (not sure of specific codes, trying to locate)
No engine symptoms, just Engine light, won't pass emissions

Lower & middle intake gaskets
Upper intake gaskets
Throttle body Gasket
IMRC
IMR
Remove intake and Decarbonize ports
PCV valve
fuel injection maint

August/Sept 2004: Beginning Symptoms of pinging or noise during accelaration, then began not holding idle after cold start. Would need to hold accerlarator down for 3-5 min's to warm up, then would be OK, w/ noise during acceleration. This was always intermittent. Happening few times/week, not every day. THEN Engine light comes on. Had it checked, read 171/174.

Goodyear replaced the MAP sensor for $200. But my car doesn't have a MAP sensor, so maybe it was the MAF sensor. The Goodyr mgr described the part as a MAP, spelled it out, then said it stood for Manifold something Pressure. Explained the voltage was low to it, therefore it was a bad sensor, and replaced. The tech wrote 2 numbers on the "screeen printout" under neath the word Baro
"141 or 143, then 151 after new install". I'm assuming the numbers were a pressure reading, not sure?? The Engine light is back on after 6 days, the engine symptoms are still intermittent, really bad 4 days ago, wouldn't hold idle after warm up and would have stalled at stop lights, if I didn't hold accelerator down w/ brake. Past 4 days, not idle problems, little noise during acceleration.

Should I just go ahead and have someone (not Goodyear) do the whole TSB (exluding any part that was done in 2003)? DO I have merit in asking Goodyear to refund the MAP or MAF charge?
Thanks for all advice!

[DRW1000]

MAP - Map Absolute Pressure

I think the TSB states "P0171/P0174 and no other drivability concerns" requires that the TSB be performed

I don't know if this helps but it sounds like you may have other drivability concerns. The other item to note is that some of the work was performed prior to the TSB release.

I know I haven't helped much but I did want to make the points.