GRRRRR 171 & 174 AGAIN

[Goldlexus]

Okay I have a 99 windstar 3.8L...I took it into the mechanic 3 weeks ago, told him about the TSB mentioned here. In their diagnostics they felt it was the MAF sensor. They cleaned that up, did a full tune up (it was time for that) and fuel injector cleaning. I don't think he ever looked up the TSB. At any rate a week later boom the light came back on! Now I did put gas in the day before not sure if that has anything to do with anything but it does start to show a pattern. Let me go on.... Took the car back in same codes again I mention the TSB but couldn't remember the number but did remember it had to do with a vacuum leak issue. So the mechanic begins to research with me there. He finds a TSB regarding that the PCM needs to be recalibrated figures that must be the problem. SO he takes it to ford and has it recalibarted. Ligt is off, put gas in 2 days after still light off. That was a week ago Tues. This week I put gas in yesterday boom light comes on first thing this morning.
Now the reason I bring up the gas and when I put in the gas is I have read somewhere something about a problem with the gas cap seal. Is that right? I know it probably is the TSB issue BUT on the off chance it is something else could it be a gas cap problem? Just grasping at straws here because we have NO more money to put into this car right now. 2 months ago we had to replace the power steering gear to the tune of $600 plus $600 for the full tune up and $80 for recalibrating the PCM. We are tapped out.
Another question regarding the 3-16-1 TSB why does it cost so much? Is it just expensive if it is done at the ford dealership? If parts are about $100 (that is what I have read) and labor at my mechanic is $65.00 per hour and from what I read it takes between 2-4 hrs.(depending on experience) to do the work that is about $360 at the high end. Just curious

[lewisnc100]

My comments below are assuming that the check engine light is back and it has the same P0171/P0174 codes, if you don't know you need to find out.

First of all the recalibration was part of the original TSB that we pointed you to, why would he read that part and get it recalibrated (which merely keeps it from pinging with the added carbon deposits) without doing the steps in the TSB to fix the leak? The recalibration itself doesn't fix your problem.

The parts are cheap, the $100 includes a new valve cover, if you don't need that it will be less. Check with DRW1000, he's got the same codes and about to do the work, I'm sure he'll be posting some details from his work after he is done.

Sorry but the loose gas cap is not the cause of a P0171/P0174 error codes. Yes it can trigger the check engine light, but it will be different codes for an EVAP small leak.

I think at this point you need to consider a new mechanic, especially considering he has a very detailed TSB right in front of him with the solution that specifically states the following: "Do not replace PCM (Powertrain Control Module), MAF (Mass Air Flow), or HEGOs (Heated Oxygen Sensors), as these parts are not the root cause of the lean codes conditions described." In addition I shudder to think of giving someone $600 for a tuneup, not sure what that would entail other than changing the spark plugs, filters and putting in some fuel injector cleaner since everything else is computer controlled. I'd be very curious what you got for $600 other than inspecting items.

[DRW1000]

Lewisnc100 is correct I just got the codes last week and I will post any solutions as I get them. I need to rule out some other causes before I jump in to the TSB but I am fairly certain I have to do the TSB or at least some of it.

I too was very surprised that your mechanic read the TSB and decided that only the reprogramming portion was relevant. Perhaps you may wish to ask him or her.

The reson that the TSB fix costs so much is that there is more than $100 worth of parts and I think it could take up to 6 hours for the work. The parts asked for in the TSB are:

Valve cover
Isolator Bolts
Port Seals
Fuel Regulator hose.
Reprogramming of the PCM

Personally I am not going to bother with the valve cover or reprogramming. My fuel regulator hose appears to be fine. This leaves the seals and Isolator bolts. As I discussed in a different thread (but still very new thread) is that since I am doing the work myself I am planning to just replace the bolts. This amounts to about $80 Canadian and 2 hours of my time. I am gambling that the seals will be alright. It may work for a while, forever or not at all. If I then have to go back to do the seals then I will have to dissasemble more and thus I will have wasted 2 hours. (not too bad of a gamble I suppose).

If you are paying labour then you may have to consider it a bit differently. I do not know your mechanical ability buy you should be able to decide if you need the regulator hose or not. This is a $26 Cdn part and about 2 minutes of work. I don't know if I buy the valve cover reasoning and you have already done the PCM re-programming. The valve cover replacement and regulator hose are separate areas and parts of these jobs are not done when changing the bolts or seals. However the seals and bolts require a lot of common steps.

Hope this is helpful

[DRW1000]

I should add that I THINK there is more than $100 US in parts. The valve cover is $125 CDN by itself.

[Goldlexus]

Originally Posted by lewisnc100

My comments below are assuming that the check engine light is back and it has the same P0171/P0174 codes, if you don't know you need to find out.

First of all the recalibration was part of the original TSB that we pointed you to, why would he read that part and get it recalibrated (which merely keeps it from pinging with the added carbon deposits) without doing the steps in the TSB to fix the leak? The recalibration itself doesn't fix your problem.

The parts are cheap, the $100 includes a new valve cover, if you don't need that it will be less. Check with DRW1000, he's got the same codes and about to do the work, I'm sure he'll be posting some details from his work after he is done.

Sorry but the loose gas cap is not the cause of a P0171/P0174 error codes. Yes it can trigger the check engine light, but it will be different codes for an EVAP small leak.

I think at this point you need to consider a new mechanic, especially considering he has a very detailed TSB right in front of him with the solution that specifically states the following: "Do not replace PCM (Powertrain Control Module), MAF (Mass Air Flow), or HEGOs (Heated Oxygen Sensors), as these parts are not the root cause of the lean codes conditions described." In addition I shudder to think of giving someone $600 for a tuneup, not sure what that would entail other than changing the spark plugs, filters and putting in some fuel injector cleaner since everything else is computer controlled. I'd be very curious what you got for $600 other than inspecting items.

Let me clear something up. My mechanic never saw 3-16-1 TSB he found an different TSB that addressed the PCM recalibation. He gave me the print out of the TSB but I can't seem to find it but it was different. I told him about the 3-16-1 over the phone but at the time didn't have the number of the TSB and just had a laundry list of the parts needed.
The $600 tune up was more than a basic tune up it included radiator flush and tranny flush along with fuel injector cleaning and the MAF sensor.
I take the car back on Monday morning. I want to go in with all the info. I can find on this. Does any one have the TSB that I can print out and take in? I don't want any shot gunning any more but at the same time I don't want to over look any obvious cheaper problems and assume it to be the mentioned tsb problem.

[Goldlexus]

Forget to mention....The van runs fairly well but still pings some. Not as bad as before the tune up but still get some pinging. I am using plus gas and not regular to keep the ping down. I would imagine regular unleaded would cause more ping? It has a bit more get up and go pre-tune up too. I don't know if any of that makes a difference in diagnosis or not.

[12Ounce]

When we get both codes, P0171/P0174, it's a good practice to watch carefully for coolant losses. If you notice a coolant loss, or a change in the appearance of the coolant, be on guard concerning a leaking lower manifold gasket.

If not corrected, coolant leakage into the combustion chamber or crank case can cause a lot of grief!

[lewisnc100]

Originally Posted by Goldlexus

My mechanic never saw 3-16-1 TSB he found an different TSB that addressed the PCM recalibation.

Just found it surprising that he didn't zero in on the 3-16-1 TSB when the title of the TSB is "Engine Controls/Fuel System - MIL ON/DTC's P0171/P0174", can't get much easier to find than that when he read the P0171/P0174 codes.

The valve cover price has gotten more expensive this year but I got mine at 1stfordparts.com for $49 including shipping. Dealer wanted $60.

[DRW1000]

Goldlexus,

I have a copy of the TSB that we have been discussing. Will be happy to forward it

[Goldlexus]

Thanks that would be great. PM my email addy to you. Thank you!

[wiswind]

Please remember to check for other causes of coolant loss.
I was concerned about my head gasket when I was losing a slight amount of coolant over time......and could see no signs of leakage.
The Windstar is known to leak coolant from the timing chain cover.....I was told that it is a $1200 repair..... A simple repair except for step #1 in the instructions "Remove Engine".
My leak was basically a seapage.....not enough to even put a drop on the ground. I put some stop leak into the coolant to deal with it.

For pinging, perhaps trying different brands of gasoline is worth a try.
I would seriously doubt that gasoline brand will have anything to do with your fault code though.

[Goldlexus]

Yes, I know gasoline brands wouldn't cause the codes. I have only used 2 different brands of gas in my car. Union 76 & Chevron. The ping seems to be less with the Chevron brand gas. I never go to the cheap no name places associated with convience stores.
The ping drives me nuts and had hoped with the tune up it would have gone away. It is MUCH better than it was. It comes and goes oddly enough. Somedays maybe just a second or two of pinging on accleration on others I have to let up on the gas for it to stop.
Do some cars just ping and that is just the way it is? My pinto use to ping like the dickens never could get it to stop. Must not have hurt it any that car kept running for years and years past what would be expected. I finally sold it to my brother (can you just tell how much I love him) he drove it for several years than he sold it to a friend. It finally died a couple of years after that. Pintos were often the butt of jokes but this pinto was great. Sure it couldn't get out of its own way but it got me where I needed to go.

[DRW1000]

Is the pinging due to pre-ignition? As far as I am aware there is a knock sensor. If your are getting knocking due to pre-ignition it should set a code.

Someone please feel free to agree or disagree.

[Goldlexus]

Originally Posted by DRW1000

Is the pinging due to pre-ignition? As far as I am aware there is a knock sensor. If your are getting knocking due to pre-ignition it should set a code.

Someone please feel free to agree or disagree.

I think so. Only codes we are getting are the 171/174 codes which is a lean code. Don't you get ping if the engine is running too lean? Which brings me to another question with the TSB is that fixing a false code 171/174 or does it fix the cause of a car running lean?
One other question that is floating around in my mind is, is there a way to diagnosis if all or any of the parts mentioned in the TSB absolutely NEED to be replaced? I don't want to have some work done on my van of this expense on are a 'odds are diagnosis'. Yes this is a known flaw with Windstar engines BUT do ALL windstar suffer from it? If not how can I find out whether or not my windstar does or not? I am admittedly learning as I go. I am not a mechanic at all just a consumer that researches everything before walking into a mechanics a taking their word as gospel.

[rodeo02]

Goldlexus- as far as I know the lean code thing is predominantly a 1999-2003 3.8L thing. The plastic "barrel" upper intake is a pretty crappy design prone to seal leakage. However you do *usually* get some performance issues along with the lean codes. Your vacuum leak may be so subtle, you dont feel it. I've also heard that you can get vacuum leaks at the intake manifold runner control shafts, due to worn bushings. You could try to slop the bushing areas up with heavy grease to see if that makes the codes go away.
G/luck
Joel