Criminal thoughts or vice versa

[ledhedsymbols]

So here I am at work..... It's a military prison, and I was just thinking to myself what exatly makes someone a criminal? Is it the act of committing a crime or is it more? Is it a mindset, or maybe some sort of mental disease. Is the commission of a crime enough to make one a criminal?
Most of the people here are stupid kids. We have some that are here for felonies and that sort of thing. Many of them are here because they decided that they didn't like the military, left (desertion) and smoked some reefer while they were away (a much more serious crime in the military.) Most will do 45 days to about 6 months, and they will leave this place and the military behind. Are they really criminals?
I was just thinking about treatment and rehabilitation, and it occured to me that it might be nice to have a way to differentiate and treat accordingly. What do the rest of you in TV land think?

[landyacht]

What makes someone a criminal...

Let's start by defining what a criminal is:

One that has committed or been legally convicted of a crime involving, or relating to the administration of penal law; Guilty.

I don't believe it's a mental disorder, but you are correct in stating that it is a mindset. Becomming a criminal is the conscious choice to break the law by committing an illegal act; committing a crime (hence criminal).

Based on the definition of a criminal i believe that simply committing the act, no matter what the state of mind at the time, constitutes the title of criminal.

As far as treatment and rehabilitation, well, prison attempts to do that, as do the psychiatric hospitals for 'the criminally insane'. Those 'kids' as you call it sitting in the military prison... do they deserve to be there? Should they termed criminals? Let's examine some facts.

First they smoked reefer ie marijuana; an illegal drug. The military is certainly more strict about this because they do not want their image to be tarnished by the soldiers smoking pot. What should the punishment be, besides discharging them? People that have and use illegal drugs are sent to prison all the time for committing illegal acts via illegal drugs. I don't see why the military ought be any different.

Next you say they deserted their units... situation pending, that could risk the lives of everyone else in the unit if it's not at full capacity. You see where i'm going with this. What punishment should they recieve for this? Is prison right for this act... well, the military makes it's internal laws. So if someone breaks a military law, why should they be persecuted differently than someone breaking a civic or federal law?

Is the commission of a crime enough to make one a criminal?

I believe based on our definition and the points explained above it does.

Anyone else from TV land?

[lazysmurff]

laws make people criminals.

there is no mind set that "i really want to break the law" it's more along the lines of "i really want this/ to do this" but it just so happens that "this" is against the law set up and enforced by government.

funny how if we didnt have a government, we wouldnt have any criminals.

[landyacht]

lazysmurff you make a good point.

I do think though, that would still be criminals. People would still steal things from others, unfortunately, because that has always happened among groups of people. But without laws and/or government these actions would become more 'moral crimes' than anything else... just my thought though.

I think the other difference is how would they be persecuted? Vigilante groups, etc. or like in the middle east where theives have their hands cut off.

[lazysmurff]

you would be free to seek retribution equal to the damage done to you.

[ledhedsymbols]

Interesting points, and it was nice to hear from both of you. I agree wholeheartedly with most of what have to say landyacht. Just a bit of clarification on one point I think... The military's problem with illicit drug use is IMO more related to the inherent danger to others when intoxicated. Weapons, ships, generators, motors, Hummers (HMMVW), taks and on and on, are all inherently dangerous. People get hurt or killed by sober people when they aren't vigilant. Alcohol or drug use exacerbates this. I believe that being drunk on duty is the same as using an illegal drug, but the military has a somewhat more leniant stance on alcohol. That's not to say that the penalties are not severe when alcohol is involved. In general, unless you are past a certain rank, you get one or two youthful mistakes. Make them after you should know better and your career is dead ended at best, or terminated if the problem is severe enough. Case in point, one person who I have worked with had a severe problem. He lost his security clearance and was kicked out of the Navy after 19 years service. You can retire at 20....


All that aside.... Lazysmurf, I disagree with your concept of anarchy and justice. Without common laws and customs we cannot be a society. Also justice as you describe it is merely vigilatism, and would bring along all the problems associated with it... Thanks for your input, you have both given me some things to think about...


Cheers

[-Josh-]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

laws make people criminals.

there is no mind set that "i really want to break the law" it's more along the lines of "i really want this/ to do this" but it just so happens that "this" is against the law set up and enforced by government.

funny how if we didnt have a government, we wouldnt have any criminals.

Dont make me get out my psych notes on moral and psychological development, this is a topic that gets researched year round by professionals.

[lazysmurff]

Lazysmurf, I disagree with your concept of anarchy and justice. Without common laws and customs we cannot be a society. Also justice as you describe it is merely vigilatism, and would bring along all the problems associated with it

feel free to do so. everyone else does as well. however, you, just like eeryone else, have failed to differentiate between government and society.

please explain to me, however, how equal retribution is vigilantism. and really, isnt our justice system just legalized vigilantism?

Dont make me get out my psych notes on moral and psychological development, this is a topic that gets researched year round by professionals.

uh oh. someone who took pysch 101 wants to wax intellectual. please, have fun. i think you'll find its fairly well documented that the illegallity of something makes it simply that much more appealing.

it being 2 AM and me having class tomorrow morning, i wont bore you with the long drawn out arguments about morals, ethics, rights and how all that ties into law, and how the ideas of all that affect behavior. but if you really want me to, please, by all means, post your argument and i'll get back to you.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

laws make people criminals.

there is no mind set that "i really want to break the law" it's more along the lines of "i really want this/ to do this" but it just so happens that "this" is against the law set up and enforced by government.

funny how if we didnt have a government, we wouldnt have any criminals.

That doesn't even play very good symantics.

[lazysmurff]

you mean semantics? im unsure as to what your getting at....

all i know, is im really just looking for a good argument

[-Josh-]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

uh oh. someone who took pysch 101 wants to wax intellectual. please, have fun. i think you'll find its fairly well documented that the illegallity of something makes it simply that much more appealing.

it being 2 AM and me having class tomorrow morning, i wont bore you with the long drawn out arguments about morals, ethics, rights and how all that ties into law, and how the ideas of all that affect behavior. but if you really want me to, please, by all means, post your argument and i'll get back to you.

Actually i was just joking, but if you want i could give you my unvarnished opinion coupled with my PSYCH notes, i think i could present a very good argument to which you would probably get a brain aneurism and pass out. But i'm to lazy to do so and frankly i dont want to do all the typing tonight because i have two papers to write for my speech class that's probably going to give me carpal tunnle.

Goodnight AF

[lazysmurff]

Originally Posted by Z28Josh

Actually i was just joking,

fair enough

Originally Posted by Z28Josh

PSYCH notes

yes, my spelling is bad. congrats on discovering that.

Originally Posted by Z28Josh

i think i could present a very good argument to which you would probably get a brain aneurism and pass out

i know your underestimating me, and methinks, overestimating yourself. im fairly certain that being able to read Hegel *shudder* and not suffer from a coma lends credible evidence to my being able to understand your arguement without too much trouble

Originally Posted by Z28Josh

But i'm to lazy to do so and frankly i dont want to do all the typing tonight because i have two papers to write for my speech class that's probably going to give me carpal tunnle.

im a student myself, believe me, i understand. if you wish to actually provide this arguement of yours, please do so at your leasure and convenience.

[Passivality]

technically if they dont do the act they arn't a criminal, they can think it all they want, doesn't mean there just going to go out and do it

[landyacht]

I found you comment about current law enforcement being a formalized vigilante group interesting. That's a valid point.

Really the only difference is that instead of a random group of people with make-shift weapons and a common cause, our law enforcement is selected and highly trained.

Of course there's more than that, this is just the juste of opinion on that one.

[ledhedsymbols]

The comment about "legalized vigilantism" is a contradiction unto itself isn't it? An interesting read BTW
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/300/300lect10.htm


Anywho, as it relates to this thread, I was personally referring more to a criminal mindset in relation to the definition of criminal. For my two cents, I honestly think there is a HUGE psychological difference between a criminal in the legal sense and a criminal in the psychological sense. You can spot the differences when you deal with these people.

Anyone else in here with experience in the corrections field?