Republican War Heroes (we're all about fairness in here, right?)

[carrrnuttt]

Chickenhawk n. A person enthusiastic about war, provided someone else fights it; particularly when that enthusiasm is undimmed by personal experience with war; most emphatically when that lack of experience came in spite of ample opportunity in that person’s youth.


Chickenhawk Headquarters
Barking Head Brigade
Bureaucratic Battalion
Chaplain Corps
NH Notables
Politicans Platoon
Propaganda Platoon
Sui Generis
The Legal Department

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From the site's "About" page:

"The alleged 'gentlemen' listed in this database are here because they share three qualities: bellicosity (a warlike manner or temperament), public prominence, and a curious lack of wartime service when others their age had no trouble finding the fight. (Sorry, Dan and George W. and Dan Q. – your safe, cushy National Guard slots won't help you now.) The fact that they's almost all Republicans is . . . well, curious, don't you think? No doubt this list is incomplete. Readers are encouraged to nominate their favorite overlooked chickenhawks."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don't get me wrong, people. I'm not all about anti-Republican. Some of my most personally respected politicians include fmr. President Ronald Reagan, who might not have been a combat soldier, but he did do what his limited service allowed him (bad eyesight), fundraising for servicemen, and doing his assigned job of creating military films. There's also fmr. Sen. Robert Dole, who fought in Korea, and of course, Sen John McCain, who was a POW in Vietnam.

It's the current Administration's (including its loudest mouthpieces) "bellicosity" (as used by the site), and hypocrisy, underlying that trait that straight boggles my senses.

[Tehvisseeus]

Just for the record, during the Vietnam War President George H.W. Bush was the Director of the CIA. There was no way that President Bush could have gone over there as it would be a massive security risk.

[Flatrater]

Nice site Carnutt but this site looks like another Bush bashing site! On second thought it is another Bush bashing.

All the people this idiot listed are in the White House right now. The listed people never stated they were somewhere that they weren't. They didn't lie about their service. SO whats the big deal?

They didn't run and hide in Canada, they didn't shot other soliders in the back and get a medal, then come home protest the war, throw some fake medals away claiming they were his.


Now please tell me how these people avoided the war since you posted this link!

Paul Wolfowitz
Donald "The Don" Rumsfeld
Karl Rove
I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby
Richard "Dick" Cheney
Spencer Abraham
Eliot Abrams
Gary Bauer
John Bolton
Andrew "Andy" Card
William "Bill" Bennett
Don Evans
Frank Gaffney
Asa Hutchinson
Richard Perle



Just show me one person besides Bush who got out of the miltary service. Your site only lists people who didn't serve in the miltary. Not serving is different then lying about what you did in the service.

This is just a lame attempt on your part to trash Bush again yet you failed in that. But you did show your hatred towards the republicans. Its not too hard to find a list of democrats who didn't serve in the miltary but it doesn't prove a thing.

[carrrnuttt]

Originally Posted by Flatrater

Nice site Carnutt but this site looks like another Bush bashing site! On second thought it is another Bush bashing.

All the people this idiot listed are in the White House right now. The listed people never stated they were somewhere that they weren't. They didn't lie about their service. SO whats the big deal?

They didn't run and hide in Canada, they didn't shot other soliders in the back and get a medal, then come home protest the war, throw some fake medals away claiming they were his.


Now please tell me how these people avoided the war since you posted this link!

Paul Wolfowitz
Donald "The Don" Rumsfeld
Karl Rove
I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby
Richard "Dick" Cheney
Spencer Abraham
Eliot Abrams
Gary Bauer
John Bolton
Andrew "Andy" Card
William "Bill" Bennett
Don Evans
Frank Gaffney
Asa Hutchinson
Richard Perle



Just show me one person besides Bush who got out of the miltary service. Your site only lists people who didn't serve in the miltary. Not serving is different then lying about what you did in the service.

This is just a lame attempt on your part to trash Bush again yet you failed in that. But you did show your hatred towards the republicans. Its not too hard to find a list of democrats who didn't serve in the miltary but it doesn't prove a thing.

Hahahaha! The 'ol "blame the messenger" thing, huh?

Not much for reading comprehension, are ya?

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

Chickenhawk n. A person enthusiastic about war, provided someone else fights it; particularly when that enthusiasm is undimmed by personal experience with war; most emphatically when that lack of experience came in spite of ample opportunity in that person’s youth.

YOU explain to me how the persons you listed above do not qualify as a Chickenhawk?

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

The alleged 'gentlemen' listed in this database are here because they share three qualities: bellicosity (a warlike manner or temperament), public prominence, and a curious lack of wartime service when others their age had no trouble finding the fight.

...and that's why they're on the list.

Besides the fact that all this "Kerry lied about his service" talk is all but unproven. A "my word against yours" fiasco. I don't know if you've read the letter 'naki posted in another thread, but I think you need to:

Originally Posted by taranaki

Anyways, back to swift boats........

http://www.telluridegateway.com/art...n/opinion01.txt

Letters to the editor


A veteran for truth

Dear Editor,

This letter is in response to the new attacks on John Kerry's war record by a group calling itself the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth." As for most veterans of any war and as people who know me will testify, it is not easy for me to talk about my experiences in Vietnam. However, because of these new ads and, I understand, a new book recently published by an old Charles Colson "Enemies List" hit man, I feel compelled to speak out. Unfortunately, the veterans featured in these attacks are being used by extreme right wing Bush supporters to spread their lies and malign John Kerry.

I feel that most of these veterans who are joining this attack are against Kerry for what he did after he was home from the war than for what he did in the war. If they are against him for his stance against the Vietnam War, that certainly is their right, but to spread lies and malicious innuendos about his time on the rivers of Vietnam is not morally right and does a disservice not only to Kerry, but to all those who served and were wounded or died in that war. The people who are using these veterans for their own means obviously do not care about that. They did the same thing to Senator John McCain and Congressman Max Cleland in 2000 with no remorse or care for the consequences.

To me what is worse is that by their silence, the current administration has not, with any real meaning, disavowed itself or distanced itself in anyway from any of these scurrilous attacks, past or present. I feel that this truly shows the Bush administration for what they really are and ultimately, who is truly responsible for these attacks.

Since I happened to be along on one of the "excursions" where the boats that we were on were attacked and after which Lt. Kerry was cited for valor, I thought it appropriate to give my recollection of that event. This happened on March 13, 1969. I was assigned as Psychological Operation Officer for the Swift Boat group out of An Thoi, Vietnam, from January 1969 to October 1969. As such, I was on No. 43 boat, skippered by Don Droz who was later that year killed by enemy fire. We were second in line while exiting the river and going through the opening in a fish trap when a mine blew up under the No. 3 boat directly in front of us and we started taking small arms fire from the beach. Almost immediately, another mine went off somewhere behind us. All boats, except the one hit, immediately wheeled toward the beach that most of the fire came from (a tactic devised by Lt. Kerry, I later learned) and commenced showering the beaches with so much lead, that it could probably be now mined there. The noise was of course, deafening.

Three things that are forever pictured in my mind since that day over 30 years ago are: (1) The No. 3, 50-foot long, Swift boat getting huge, huge air; John Kerry thought it was about two feet. (He was farther away from it than I). I think it was at least four feet and probably closer to six feet; (2) All the boats turning left and letting loose at the same time like a deadly, choreographed dance and; (3) A few minutes later, John Kerry bending over his boat picking up one of the rangers that we were ferrying from out of the water. All the time we were taking small arms fire from the beach; although because of our fusillade into the jungle, I don't think it was very accurate, thank God. Anyone who doesn't think that we were being fired upon must have been on a different river.

The picture I have in my mind of Kerry bending over from his boat picking some hapless guy out of the river while all hell was breaking loose around us, is a picture based on fact and it cannot be disputed or changed. It's a piece of history drawn in my mind that cannot be redrawn. Sorry, "Swift Boats Veterans for the Truth"- that is the truth.

To say that John Kerry or any of us were on that river to intentionally collect Purple Hearts really does every soldier and sailor, past and present, a disservice. We were going up those rivers (with an ongoing casualty rate of 86 percent at the time) on the orders of the same people who approved of Kerry's medals and who are now joining in the attacks against Kerry. Unbelievable.

I would hope that the American public sees these evil extreme right wing attacks for what they really are and also pray that the veterans being used by these unpatriotic right wing extremist political operatives will divorce themselves immediately from them and speak to the real issues as to why they oppose John Kerry. I just don't understand how anyone can align themselves with those who intentionally and gleefully painted a decorated triple amputee (Max Cleland) from Vietnam as unpatriotic. I think that this is the most disastrous, un-American thing that can be done to our servicemen and women, especially now with another unending war going on. Your ends cannot possibly justify these means. Come on!

Jim Russell

Vietnam veteran,

USN (1966-71)

Oh, and here's some more background on the ones spreading the drivel you're eating-up:

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth announced themselves to the world on May 4 of this year, at the National Press Club in Washington, at a press conference held by one Merrie Spaeth, of Spaeth Communications, Inc., to whom we shall return.

According to their Web Site, they are “a tax exempt nonpartisan public advocacy 527 committee / organization consisting of, and limited to, former military officers and enlisted men who served in Vietnam on U.S. Navy ‘Swift Boats’ or in affiliated commands.”

They “had swift boat duty and knew John Kerry personally,” they claim, and thus “are in a unique position” to provide “solid factual information relating to Mr. Kerry’s abbreviated tour of duty as a member of Coastal Division 14 and Coastal Division 11.”

They say Kerry is “unfit to be commander-in-chief,” and accuse him of “grossly and knowingly [distorting] the conduct of the American soldiers, Marines, sailors and airmen of [the Vietnam] war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us.)”

Winter Soldiers

The Swift Boat vets are referring to Kerry’s involvement in Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and the 1971 “Winter Soldier Investigation,” in which about a hundred Vietnam veterans testified against the conduct of the war.

At that time, the process of “Vietnamization” was well under way. American troop presence in Vietnam had been greatly reduced, but they were still dying daily. At issue was how long the bleeding, American and Vietnamese, would continue.

VVAW was composed of combat vets still trying to digest their experience. Some of those testifying at the hearing no doubt overstated their actions. It’s a military tradition, after all. But the one overriding and irrefutable point of the hearings was that US policy in Vietnam was creating pointless carnage, with no end in sight.

The Nixon administration had no trouble dismissing the anti-war protests of long-haired, flower-tossing hippies and leather- elbowed academics. But they were having trouble countering VVAW, and one of its most visible leaders, John Forbes Kerry.

The leader of Swift Boat Veterans is one John O’Neill. Wolf Blitzer interviewed him on CNN on April 20. According to the media watchdog Web Site mediamatters.org, “Blitzer acknowledged that questions were likely to be raised about whether O’Neill was speaking out against Kerry for political reasons [and] conceded that he had not looked into O’Neill’s partisan affiliations. “Maybe you’re a Republican — I have no idea — or the Bush people are encouraging you,’ Blitzer said.”

Actually, the encouragement began when Bush was still in the Texas Air National Guard. Joe Klein reported in the New Yorker on January 5 that Richard Nixon’s hatchet-man, Chuck Colson, told him that to “create a counterfoil” to Kerry, “[w]e found a vet named John O’Neill and formed a group called Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace. We had O’Neill meet the President, and we did everything we could do to boost his group.”

Republicans have not neglected O’Neill since his service under Nixon. William Rehnquist hired him as a law clerk in the late 1970’s, and George H.W. Bush considered him for a federal judgeship.

We can’t say why O’Neill never made it as a judge. Perhaps it has something to do with his enthusiasm. According to his own PR advisor, he comes off sounding like “a crazed extremist.” His advisor is Merrie Spaeth. According to Joe Conason, of the New York Observer, Spaeth is “among the most experienced and best connected Republican communications executives,” who “specialized in promoting ‘news’ items that boosted President Reagan to TV stations around the country” when she was director of the White House Office of Media Liaison.

“In 1998,” Conason writes, “she coached Kenneth Starr, the independent counsel, to prepare him for his testimony urging the impeachment of President Clinton before the House Judiciary Committee.” Conason says she got that job through Theodore “Ted” Olson, who lawyered for the magazine American Spectator when it was bombarding Bill Clinton with specious but imaginative lies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, those "idiots" who posted that list is a whole newspaper organization. Slanted as they are, they are required by law to post only facts, with the exception of editorials. They have a section in the site for editorials, but the "Chickenhawks" page is not part of it. As for you calling them "idiots", I doubt you're any smarter than them - seriously.

Lastly, you need to quit to quit whining about the "Bush bashing", unless you plan on whining about the "Kerry bashing" in here also.

A quick look at your sig tells me you won't be doing that anytime soon, and also solidifies your, and a lot of Bush's supporter's, hypocrisy in here.

[Flatrater]

Besides the fact that all this "Kerry lied about his service" talk is all but unproven. A "my word against yours" fiasco. I don't know if you've read the letter 'naki posted in another thread, but I think you need to:

You're right Nixon ordered Kerry into Cambodia in 1968 according to Kerry's own words and written statments. You're right Kerry never tossed his medals even though we have pictures of that act.

Hahahaha! The 'ol "blame the messenger" thing, huh?

No blame here just asking you to prove your stance with facts and not ficton.

YOU explain to me how the persons you listed above do not qualify as a Chickenhawk?

Now you are using the old I don't have to prove it you do game! The real meaning of Chicken Hawk as per most dictonaries.

chick·en hawknoun 1. hawk: a hawk that preys or is believed to prey on poultry

Besides the fact that all this "Kerry lied about his service" talk is all but unproven. A "my word against yours" fiasco. I don't know if you've read the letter 'naki posted in another thread, but I think you need to:

So now we have 2 people that agree with Kerry. One is Kerry and the other is this guy! Good for you! Btw no need is reposting a dead issue, I already read it once.

Oh, and here's some more background on the ones spreading the drivel you're eating-up:

Better than being Naki's puppet. But Pot this is kettle why you so mean to me?

Also, those "idiots" who posted that list is a whole newspaper organization. Slanted as they are, they are required by law to post only facts, with the exception of editorials. They have a section in the site for editorials, but the "Chickenhawks" page is not part of it. As for you calling them "idiots", I doubt you're any smarter than them - seriously.

Whose law are you quoting? So now let me get this straight any newspaper or news show is required by law to post only facts? If thats the case then FOX news was right about Kerry!

Lastly, you need to quit to quit whining about the "Bush bashing", unless you plan on whining about the "Kerry bashing" in here also.

Only person I see whining is you! Now your statment makes a whole lot of sense. Now let me see if I get this right, feel free to correct me. I know you don't need my permission but you have it anyway. In order to say something about Kerry I should also say something about BUSH? Now thats total BS!

[carrrnuttt]

Tit-for-tat bro.

You started with the "Democratic war heroes" thread, and in fairness, I started this thread.

All you've done is attacked this thread, and the source behind it, and make excuses for it's recipients.

As Yogs has been saying lately: "you getting desperate?"

And why does it have to be a "Bush thing"? As far as I can see, there's a lot of other prominent Republicans listed in my post. Is it because it all reflects on his administration?

So...I am now "'naki's puppet", because I happened to agree with a post he made?

Should I call you "Bush's puppet", or is "Yogs' puppet" okay?

BTW: Kerry's and Bush's Military Records

Feel free refute everything in there, link-by-link, as I am only sourcing from "fiction"...

[carrrnuttt]

Originally Posted by Flatrater

Only person I see whining is you! Now your statment makes a whole lot of sense. Now let me see if I get this right, feel free to correct me. I know you don't need my permission but you have it anyway. In order to say something about Kerry I should also say something about BUSH? Now thats total BS!

Saying about the other WHAT?

Haha!

Logic > You.

YOU were bitching about the "Bush-bashing", while your very sig is the epitome of "Kerry bashing".

YOU have no right to bitch about anything that you are just too happy to do on the other end of the spectrum - that's called a "double-standard", or in other words, hypocrisy.

hypocrisy
n 1: an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction

THIS was my point.

YOU need to quit complaining about something that you, yourself are doing.

[indyram]

If what they are saying about Kerry is BS, I can guarantee that he and his lawyer would be sueing them for libel faster than you can say "flip-flop". Since this is not the case, it surely must be true. I know some people may say that it isn't worth his time, if that's the case, JUST LET IT GO MAN, and tell your mom and Mr. Ed I said hi.

[YogsVR4]

Wasn't it just eight and twelve years ago that having served in the military didn't matter? Skipping out of the country to avoid the draft was ok then but not now?

People on the left really do have a hard time keeping their story straight.

[driftu]

Originally Posted by indyram

If what they are saying about Kerry is BS, I can guarantee that he and his lawyer would be sueing them for libel faster than you can say "flip-flop". Since this is not the case, it surely must be true. I know some people may say that it isn't worth his time, if that's the case, JUST LET IT GO MAN, and tell your mom and Mr. Ed I said hi.

the same way bush should of sued mikey moore for is movie?

Originally Posted by yogsvr4

Wasn't it just eight and twelve years ago that having served in the military didn't matter? Skipping out of the country to avoid the draft was ok then but not now?

i don't think it really matters. but it is funny how people of privlige can avoid military service.

Originally Posted by yogsvr4

People on the left really do have a hard time keeping their story straight.

well look what they have to work with. :eivillol:

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by driftu

i don't think it really matters. but it is funny how people of privlige can avoid military service.

For the most part, I agree with that. However, there are many people who did not serve any time in the armed forces who didn't 'avoid' anything. Sometimes people have trouble distinguishing between them.

[Flatrater]

I am still waiting for a response on this.


[quote=carrrnuttt]Tit-for-tat bro.

You started with the "Democratic war heroes" thread, and in fairness, I started this thread.

<HR SIZE=1>
Besides the fact that all this "Kerry lied about his service" talk is all but unproven. A "my word against yours" fiasco. I don't know if you've read the letter 'naki posted in another thread, but I think you need to:
<HR SIZE=1>

You're right Nixon ordered Kerry into Cambodia in 1968 according to Kerry's own words and written statments. You're right Kerry never tossed his medals even though we have pictures of that act.

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

All you've done is attacked this thread, and the source behind it, and make excuses for it's recipients.

What else should I do with a slanted web site that you provided. Just from looking you can see the bias. You have a long list of Democrats that served, none that didn't serve. Next it goes on to show the Republicans that didn't serve. WTF of all the politicans in the US yyou found 20 republicans that didn't serve. I'm sorry but it makes no difference to me one's miltary record unless they lied about their record. You are the one hung up with miltary service. I made no excuses for people not serving in the miltary that is their choose. I chose not to serve also but that doesn't make me bad.

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

As Yogs has been saying lately: "you getting desperate?"

Yes I am getting desperate, desperate for a real topic.

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

And why does it have to be a "Bush thing"? As far as I can see, there's a lot of other prominent Republicans listed in my post. Is it because it all reflects on his administration?

Why does it have to be a Bush thing? That was your intent not mine.

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

So...I am now "'naki's puppet", because I happened to agree with a post he made?

Should I call you "Bush's puppet", or is "Yogs' puppet" okay?

I perfer Yogs puppet!

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

BTW: Kerry's and Bush's Military Records

Feel free refute everything in there, link-by-link, as I am only sourcing from "fiction"...

No need to refute anything on this site the web address speaks for it self. AWOLBUSH.com

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

For the most part, I agree with that. However, there are many people who did not serve any time in the armed forces who didn't 'avoid' anything. Sometimes people have trouble distinguishing between them.

Like the topic starter here!

[driftu]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

For the most part, I agree with that. However, there are many people who did not serve any time in the armed forces who didn't 'avoid' anything. Sometimes people have trouble distinguishing between them.

true it is about the luck of the draw. but there are people in the government that either bought or their parents bought their way out of wars in the past that support sending people to die in iraq.

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

YOU were bitching about the "Bush-bashing", while your very sig is the epitome of "Kerry bashing".

I never ever pretended to be something I am not I have always been a republican in my posts. Not once did I pretend to be neutral unlike yourself. Here are some of your words

• but I will try to be as impartial as I can be.
• I will be posting footnotes to the Kerry-bashing topics, where I have found information contrary, or relating, to the criticism. Bush suporters, feel free to do the same for the incumbent.
• http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=225844

You state you are impartial yet you only post pro Kerry info from slanted and biased sites.

hypocrisy
feigned high principles: the false claim to or pretense of having admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings

pretend
make something seem to be true: to act in a way intended to make people believe something untrue or misleading about somebody or something

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

YOU have no right to bitch about anything that you are just too happy to do on the other end of the spectrum - that's called a "double-standard", or in other words, hypocrisy.

I'm not going to disagree with you here and am only going to say that the double standard applies to you and everyone on the forum. You call me a hypocrite yet in the heading of this topic you write "(we're all about fairness in here, right?)" yet all you did was post Bush bashing. You posted a list of people who never served in the miltary without giving a reason for not serving and they were all republicans. Not your list of people that served somehow strange as this may seem were all democrats.

You accuse me of whining yet I made no such statements to that effect. I merely pointed out the appearent fact at your attempt to bash Bush using slanted and biased web sites. No whine here just the facts.

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

YOU need to quit complaining about something that you, yourself are doing.

Show me where I was complaining!


Now please explain your statement "Besides the fact that all this "Kerry lied about his service" talk is all but unproven. A "my word against yours" fiasco. I don't know if you've read the letter 'naki posted in another thread, but I think you need to:"

As far as I can see it Kerry wrote his own biography stating he was in Cambodia ordered by Richard Nixon on Christmas in 1968. Kerry made that claim and repeated it several times! And explain how NIxon could order Kerry when he wasn't even the president yet! its all proven its Kerry own words and jistory does not support this claim that Kerry made.

And what about his medals? The ones Kerry told he threw away in an taped interview for Viewpoint on Nov 6 1971. To see the tape go here and read it and hear it from Kerry mouth!>>>>http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Polit..._040425-1.html

I guess that is another his word against my word as you put it.


More links for you to read!

http://www.oregonmag.com/KerryMedals.htm
A quote from this site from Kerry's CNO
“… the fabled and distinguished Chief of Naval Operations (CNO), Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, told me -- 30 years ago when he was still CNO -- that during his own command of US naval forces in Vietnam, just prior to his anointment as CNO, young Kerry had created great problems for him and the other top brass, by killing so many non-combatant civilians and going after other non-military targets."

AND THIS ONE

"Kerry was assigned to “Swiftboat” 44 on December 1, 1968. Within 24 hours he had his first Purple Heart. Kerry accumulated three Purple Hearts in four months with not even a day of duty lost from wounds according to his training officer. It’s a pity one cannot read his Purple Heart medical treatment reports which have been withheld from the public. The only person preventing their release is Senator John Kerry. "

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...8429449.htm?1c
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar..._purple_heart/