SUV Emissions Exemption? (rant)

[Lakehaze]

-SUV's (or FUv's as they seem to be a giant middle finger to everybody else on the road) are classified as 'Farm Equipment'. An ancient classification for rough and tumble pre-war pickups (20's-40's).
-Old pickups were small and uncomfortable. They were designed for work, not transport, and so were not considered passenger 'Vehicles', they were 'Equipment', like a tractor. Well, they slowly bled onto our streets over the last century (understandably so, pickups are indeed practical vehicles for the project prone driver). And now they are more popular than ever. But how many trucks are covered in mud now-a-days? How many have their beds filled with tools, dirt, or materials? And how many have four doors now? In the last 30 years, the truck (tractor) has become a transport 'Vehicle'. It belongs to the ever growing market niche of guys looking for rough and tumble style, without ever using its rough and tumble ability. And if it were just trucks (tractors) I would still insist that if they function as a passenger 'Vehicle', that emission standards should apply to them. Unfortunately its much worse.
-One day, somebody realized that they could throw seats and a roof over a truck bed and all of a sudden you've got a people mover that can cross African terrain. That was a long time ago, and that was truly a niche market. But when those giant domestic station wagons of the 70's and 80's (caprice estate/roadmaster) were crushed under the necessary emission standards, companies looked around for something to replace them. The only way to build a 'vehicle' large enough to move 9 passengers without violating emission standards is to not build a vehicle at all. Instead, they built an 8 passenger, 110 mile an hour, luxurious tractor.
-50 percent of domestic auto sales this last year were of FUv's (notice the lower case 'v', as it isn't really a vehicle) and pickup trucks. 50 percent of the domestic vehicles added to 'our' highways were tractors, farm equipment.
-Whats the friggin point in enforcing Emission standards, if half of the vehicle population is exempt because of a loophole. I personally hope my kids, and grandkids will be able to breath outside, or step into direct sunlight for more than 20 minutes.
-And for those of you who think that the greenhouse effect is a myth, just try goin to the beach for 8 hours, try for just 4 hours without sunblock. I guarantee you'll have a b!tch of a time sleepin. Now do that six days in a row. You think people in the 1800's had sunblock? What about native americans, or any anchient culture? How do you think they worked the fields six days a week without sunblock? Ozone. It does a job. Ask your parents. Even 30-60 years ago it was markedly safer to go out. We are the first generation told to avoid UV exposure.

--So whats this doing here. Well, your all car people, tell me what you want. Do you want a healthy environment for your kids, or do you want your $50k tractor (that you can't even take off road BECAUSE its $50k, I wouldn't risk it either)? Come all Excursion-racing-soccer-moms, H2-Burning-Ecoterrorists, bling-bling-24inch-spinner-high-rollers, and construction-worker-hauling-formen. Should they be exempt, should they qualify as 'Farm-f*ckin-Equipment'? FUv's or no?

[Z_Fanatic]

Here Here

Don't mean to stereotype, but drivers of SUVS and mini-vans tend to be more a-holes than the rest.

[ExtreemATV]

they tend to be a-holes because they think they are larger than everyone else.

[freakonaleash1187]

great, great post. i am tired of all these big suv's around me. i am afraid one will run me over cuz they can't see me. and they do seem to be the biggest a-holes. i say for somebody to buy an suv, you have to go off-road at least once a month, and i don't mean driving down a dirt trail with little bumps, i'm talking mud all up the side of the vehicle and the suspension working its ass off.

[nhstiger75]

I come from the other side of this (4x4 driver). I don't think that the two-wheel drive SUV's should be exempt because what do they need with a diesel engine that can rip through mud with a good four wheel drive? I also have a friend who drives a one ton four wheel drive that isn't off road too often but when he is he needs it. He can't afford two vehicles and he needs that power. My S-10 4x4 obviously meets standards and I think that most SUV's should too. But I can't blame someone who needs or even uses a hardcore offroad vehicle for having one. I'm not sure if I made any sense but that's my say.

[Lakehaze]

(4x4 driver). I don't think that the two-wheel drive SUV's should be exempt because what do they need with a diesel engine that can rip through mud with a good four wheel drive? I also have a friend who drives a one ton four wheel drive that isn't off road too often but when he is he needs it. He can't afford two vehicles and he needs that power. My S-10 4x4 obviously meets standards and I think that most SUV's should too. But I can't any sense but that's my say.[/quote]

-"But I can't blame someone who needs or even uses a hardcore offroad vehicle for having one." - Who? Who NEEDS one? What individual (Corporations and Government aside) NEEDS mountain climbing ability?

-Now, I'm all for 4-wheelers/ATV's. There will always be offroad machines. I have no big problem with that. Now, when people start using their ATV's to commute, then I have a problem. When ATV's are considered 'Passenger Vehicles', and are regulated as such, then they will be welcome on the highway. And if a person can't afford an off-roader, too bad, I can't either, so I drive a car only.

-Answer this question; Under what explanation should your S-10 be officially classified as 'Farm Equipment'?
-While considering, consider these:
Does an S-10 function or resemble an Utter-Sucker, an Incubator, or a Tractor? Or does it function 90% of the time just like my 300zx? Do I have to share the road with tractors? Do I have to share the road with S-10's? Is 50% of the auto sales market comprised of tractors? Do tractors pose any relative threat to our future as my car and your truck do? Why is it that my car is considered a vehicle, and your truck is considered equipment? And finally, what do you really think the repercussions of modern trucks being classified as 'Farm Equipment' really are, and why does congress refuse to address it?

[Lakehaze]

Although half the reason for the thread was discussion, the main reason was to really see what peoples vote was. There have got to be a hudered threads on SUV-hating. I want to address the Exemption issue specifically. Now, me being my idiot self forgot to make it a poll (forgot the things existed). 45 people have checked out this thread in the last day. I would like to know what their oppinion is without them having to write a paragraph about how right-on I am, or what a commie-lovin' nut-fugger I am.
-Moderators please, Can you repost this as a poll? If not, I may Copy my post into a new thread (regretedly leaving behind the replies so far), and I know how much you'd hate that.

-Poll:
A)SUV's and Pickups should be left the way they are, they earn the right to be 'Farm Equipment' because of their capability.
B)SUV's should be reclassified to 'Passenger Vehicles' just like the rest of the privately owned, mass polluting, and highway ready vehicles.
C)SUV's *and* Pickups should be reclassified as 'Passenger Vehicles' because pickups have evolved from equipment to vehicles.

Thanks in advance.

[mason_RsX]

C - Without a doubt. The fact is that just about nobody uses suv's for their true purposes. they should have no different emissions standards. I cannot stand seeing the soccer moms (or dads) in their huge gas guzzling suv's to drop the kids off at school, while he/she feels the safeness of an suv will make up for their awful driving... Trucks are real similar. Most farm equipment isn't purchased very often so most of the trucks aren't bought for that purpose.

One little fact I read about...Truck/SUV emission standards go brand wide and the averages must below a certin level... What Chrysler/Dodge did was they had the Pt cruiser made with a few things that allow them to classify it as a truck. So because this "truck" has such great emissions standards it brings Chrysler/Dodge's truck emissions average down, so they can pump out dirtier Hemi's in new trucks

[Lakehaze]

-Good Call on the PT cruiser, I've been meaning to put it up here.

-But alas, I have to pull my foot out of my mouth and eat my words.

-I've been searching for the relationship between 'Farm Equipment' and trucks, and well, there is none. Nada.
I owe everybody here an apology, especially the S-10.
But, misinformation aside, there is a classification differnce between trucks and cars. Let me reiderate.

-All trucks and cars were considered light-duty vehicles, no difference until 1975. In 73, International Harvester argued its case that pickups should be classfied seperately because of thier nature. They won of coarse, and reasonably, but times have changed. Light-duty trucks ('light' is a little misrepresentative; inlcudes full-size and smaller, <8500bl GVRW/<6000 Curb weight, not dumptrucks) were a small population until the 80's when minivans (considered light-duty trucks) literally exploded and SUV's began their slow march upward.
In 1980, the roads consisted of 19.9% light trucks, in 1999, with the help of minivans and SUV's, that number has skyrocketed to 74.8%.

-The Regulations work like this:

-DOT controls Fuel Economy with CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy). It was in responce to the Saudi Oil Embargo, to lessen the dependancy.
CAFE for cars = 27.5 mpg
CAFE for trucks = 20.7 (enter the PT Cruiser, pull that shit up)
In 1996, congress prohibited DOT from reduceing light trucks any more. Don't know why yet.

-The EPA controls the Emission Standards. Which is the tolerance of actual polutants like CO2 and particulates.
Light trucks are broken up into four levels.
1=tacoma and tracker (same standards as all cars)
2=the majority/Blazer and Explorer
3+4 = F150, Durango, Windstar
This year they added a new category for vehicles over 8500bl GVRW(eg excursion/suburban). The Medium-Duty. Its to keep, say, ford from beefing up the expedition to avoid changing it.

-Thats right, they are changing it. EPA has noticed the fact that cars only make up a quarter of the cars now, and thier in the process of matching up the classes. By 2009, all light trucks will be governed by the same emissions standars. I dont know how the Meduim-Duty class will fit in.
As far as i can tell, Congress is still prohibiting DOT from changing Light truck CAFE standards, but its only a matter of time.
There are a few problems with the transition, but its moving. There is a new catalytic converter technology, but it requires oil refineries to take a big hit to clean out the sulfer content of our fuel. Gas prices will rise temporarily(?). And there are some other problems, but its all red tape.

-Good news I guess. Don't know if i should feel good for the system, or stupid for opening my big mouth. This was supposed to be a dialog, a learning experience. I suppose it shouldn't have been the first step, but you've got to start somewhere. And it did work, it forced me into an argument for which i had to prepare.
I could delete all my previous posts, but I would rather people read my mistakes and learn from them. It was, after all, a process. Not to mention, reguardless of the term 'Farm Equipment', most of the argument holds true. Cars and trucks are no longer so different, and both should be accountable for their responsibilities.

-Apologies, feel free to continue bashing SUV's, they still are, currently at least, FUv's.

[Z_Fanatic]

I'd have no problem with SUVS/minivans if they didn't drive like a-holes.

3 incidents since yesterday:

Three lane road, and this big white delivery-size minvan was in the right lane. And I was accelerating on the left, going 45-50 in 45 zone. This guy slams irresponsibly into the middle lane (no indicator and speeding), and then jolts right in front of me (no indicator again), I had to brake instantly and give him a nice honking reminder. If I hadn't, well his insurance would have been pleased. Turns out, he just wanted to make the left turn, and was too lazy about it to make the switch beforehand. Did I mention it was raining like crazy, and roads were slippery?

Today:

4 lane road: I am on the middle lane, and waiting for the long-winded signal to turn green. In the left most lane that leads to a turn also has a redlight. Before our light changes, that side turns green first. In left lane (right of the turning lane), there is a Hyundai SUV at the front, followed by Ford Explorer. So the moment the light on the turn lane switches to green, the Hyundai drivers floors it and then stop instantaneously, but the Explorer behind it decided to floor it as well. Apparently, he couldn't stop quick enough. So the Hyundai got a nice hatch-bender. Turns out, two idiots don't make a right.

And then I am driving in the local metropolitan highway, a white SUV decides to use the signal for a split second and cut me off into the left lane, had to make another quick stop followed by short honks.

These illegal overtakakings by SUVs are pretty regular, and far more prevalent than cars.

[nhstiger75]

I suppose I should defend my poor little truck by saying that it does meet emissions standards. In fact that's one of the things I like about it. My vote goes to 'B' as long as a few special exceptions are made. SUV's, all of them, should be Passenger Vehicles. No one farms with them. And all trucks under 3/4 ton as well because you can move them through mud and still meet standards. And 3/4 ton and above should have to support their need for not meeting standards.

[LEGO MY E]

Not all SUV's are fat hogs. Mine is a Honda Element, 24 MPG average with 4WD, Low Emissions Vehicle (LEV2), Kicks A$$ on emissions standards (WAY ahead of government regulated requirements!), and get this... 1/7th the emissions of a Hummer H2!!

The only problem with driving my Element is that others want to engage in "Road Rage" all the time! I only have a little 4 banger in the thing, but with 160HP, 160 ft. lbs. torque the Element holds it's own on the freeway! As far as the little punk$hits that want to drag race? Well, I've got 2 little girls in the back seat that mean much more to me than a pi$$ing contest!

So, yes... some of the fat hogs need to be put on a diet, but that is coming very soon! Within the next couple of years emissions standards will be such that they will FORCE manufacturers to be more frugal with our gasoline. And within the next DECADE I would predict that AT LEAST 25% of all new cars sold will be a Hybrid model of some sort. But then, I'm not "LEGOSTRADOMUS"!

Just my 24MPG!

LEGO

[TheSilentChamber]

this thread proves people will complain about anything.

[Lakehaze]

Originally Posted by TheSilentChamber

this thread proves people will complain about anything.

Anything? If being unsatisfied with a governemnt and a public willing to sacrifice its children for a thicker slice of the profit margin and a short sighted sense of importance is 'anything', then so be it.

It could be said that the above Quote "proves" that vauge, one-line posts are as useless and annoying as...'anything'.

Perhaps you should elaborate...