More reasons to fear Kerry

[YogsVR4]

http://www.swiftvets.com

Before the obligatory "but Bush blah blah blah". Take this as what it is. Its a critisizm of Kerry from the people who served with him. Kerry touts being a vetran of Vietnam so lets hear from his peers.

[Hyatus]

so basically u cant trust him, he lies, his piers talk crap behind his back, and he has a shady background? Now the question is what presidential canadate am i discribing? lol

[SniperX13]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

http://www.swiftvets.com

Before the obligatory "but Bush blah blah blah". Take this as what it is. Its a critisizm of Kerry from the people who served with him. Kerry touts being a vetran of Vietnam so lets hear from his peers.

its one thing to be supportive, or be unsupportive. these are people who served with him, depended on him, put there lives and the protection of them in his hands. If these people say he is unworthy, that means alot more to me than hearing Bush say he is unworthy.

I would though, like a site or two that might have comments from Bush's old crew mates. get both sides. I bet there are those who would say the same about him.

Kerry's mates effectively in my mind, paint a picture of a guy who, in a wartime crisis, fell to pieces. Now, granted, it was a wartime situation, and anyone who hasnt been in combat, cannot effective say how they would react. Hopefully Kerry can give some light to these allegations, and at least show a proven track record of not choking and being able to face it head on and not duck and cower.

I still have not been swayed with who to vote for. but this does make it a little more harder to go for someone who, when shown to face an agressor, isnt that reliable, and then we have bush, who just hard charges in... albight sometimes blindly... but at least he charged and didnt fold.

[FireBball972]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

http://www.swiftvets.com

Before the obligatory "but Bush blah blah blah". Take this as what it is. Its a critisizm of Kerry from the people who served with him. Kerry touts being a vetran of Vietnam so lets hear from his peers.

amen to that

[Honden]

http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php

just to set the record straight


Honden

[leadfootGTP]

actually john kerry's commanding officer, a member of the group that posted that and wrote a book about it admitted yesterday that he was wrong about kerrys records and apologised for the alligations. John Mcain (a republican) even said that he found the allegations to be dishonerable and dishonest, the BUSH ADMINISTRATION even announced that they do not support the allegations. Besides, if your so worried about the military records of our predidential candidates, lets talk about George W Bush....................

here are some things you might want to check out

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...eut/index.html

[twospirits]

I just love it how no matter if the bush camp starts a topic on kerry this or kerry that, it always end up going back to the bush camp to defend themselves.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by twospirits

I just love it how no matter if the bush camp starts a topic on kerry this or kerry that, it always end up going back to the bush camp to defend themselves.

That’s only because there is no Kerry camp. There is only the anti Bush camp and they do not allow criticism of anyone other then Bush

[carrrnuttt]

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is an advocacy organization formed in 2004 by opponents of John Kerry's U.S. presidential campaign. Its name refers to the class of boat on which Kerry and some of the organization's members served in the Vietnam War. The group is devoted to calling Kerry's war record into question, particularly with regard to the length of his tour of duty and the nature of the injuries for which he received Purple Hearts.

Table of contents

• 1 History
• 2 Mission
• 3 Membership
  • 3.1 Commentary
  • 3.2 Contact information
  • 3.3 External Links

History

The establishment of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth was announced at the National Press Club in a May 4, 2004, news conference held by Merrie Spaeth of Spaeth Communications, Inc.

According to the organization's web site, it is "a tax exempt non-partisan public advocacy 527 committee/organization consisting of, and limited to, former military officers and enlisted men who served in Vietnam on U.S. Navy 'Swift Boats' or in affiliated commands. ... While swiftvets.com is separate and distinct from the Swift Boat Sailors Association, there are many individuals who are members of both. Swiftvets.com essentially serves as an informational clearing-house and internet repository of information related to the swiftvets.com mission."

In August 2004, the group "bought television time in three swing states for an advertisement that attacks Senator John Kerry, accusing him of lying about his war record, including the circumstances surrounding his medals, and betraying his comrades by later opposing the war." One of the SWVT "said the group was spending $500,000 to run the advertisement but would not say how long it would be on the air; a Kerry aide said the buy was far smaller, $156,000 in seven smallish markets like Green Bay, Wis., and Toledo, Ohio, suggesting it was a 'vanity buy' intended to attract news coverage."[1]

The August 4 2004 editions of Fox News Channel's Hannity & Colmes and MSNBC's Scarborough Country dedicated coverage and airtime to the SWVT campaign. Misrepresentations and misinformation failed to be addressed. For example, claims that SWVT members served with John Kerry on his boat in Vietnam were supported by the Hannity & Colmes broadcast, which referred to the group as Kerry's "crewmates."


Mission

The mission statement on the SWVT website states:

"We believe it is incumbent on ALL presidential candidates to be totally honest and forthcoming regarding personal background and policy information that would help the voting public make an informed decision when choosing the next president of the United States.

"Now that Senator John Kerry is the presumptive nominee of his Party for president, numerous questions have been raised concerning Mr. Kerry’s service in Vietnam and concerning his subsequent antiwar activities. Our mission is to provide solid factual information relating to Mr. Kerry’s abbreviated tour of duty as a member of Coastal Division 14 and Coastal Division 11. Since many who are involved with Swiftvets.com themselves had swift boat duty and knew John Kerry personally, they are in a unique position to provide such information."

Membership

Founding members of the group include Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann (retired), a famously aggressive commander of Swift boat forces; John E. O'Neill, a veteran and attorney who had long been a vociferous critic of Kerry's war record and who has been associated with the Nixon administration to counter Vietnam War protests against the war (see below)[2]; 13 other named veterans; and other veterans who were not members but signed the group's public statement against Kerry, for a total of 189 signatures. The statement claimed that Kerry had not been forthcoming about his military and medical records, and demanded that he make them public, which he did. The group has continued to criticize Kerry on other aspects of his record.

SBVT contains many officers who praised Kerry's conduct during the Vietnam War. These include Division Commander Grant Hibbard, who wrote positive evaluations of Kerry, and Commander George Elliott, who submitted Kerry for a Silver Star. By contrast, none of the men who directly served under Kerry in his swift boat belong to SBVT and they actively campaign on behalf of Kerry's presidential bid.

SBVT is officially nonpartisan, but has several ties to Republican Party politics. Notably, its media representative, Merrie Spaeth, was a Reagan administration press officer and an advisor to Ken Starr in the Clinton impeachment. The SBVT website states:

"The Swift Boat Vets for Truth include the entire chain of command above Kerry: Lt. Commander Grant Hibbard, Lt. Commander George Elliott, Captain Charles Plumly, Captain Adrian Lonsdale USCG (retired) and Rear Admiral Hoffmann (retired), as well as enlisted men, officers, men who served with Mr. Kerry, men who served in the same group of Swift boats and men intimately familiar with the operations and conduct of Swift boat operations during the war. The group also includes James Zumwalt, Lt. Colonel, U.S.M.C. (retired), representing his father, Admiral Elmo Russell Zumwalt, and brother, Lt. Elmo Russell Zumwalt III, both deceased."

• Rear Admiral Roy (Latch) Hoffmann (retired), Chairman
• Weymouth (Wey) Symmes, Treasurer

Interestingly, on August 5, 2004, Elliott recanted his criticism of Kerry's being awarded a Silver Star. He said, "It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here." The affidavit states that the incident for which Kerry received the medal was actually shooting "a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back." Elliott said he felt "time pressure" to sign the affidavit from those involved in putting out the book Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry, published by the conservative Regnery Publishing. "That's no excuse," Elliott said. "I knew it was wrong. ... In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake."[3]

However, Elliott maintains that, "based on the affidavits of the veterans on other boats," Kerry's being awarded the Bronze Star and third Purple Heart might be questionable. He said: "I simply have no reason for these guys [signing the other affidavits] to be lying, and if they are lying in concert, it is one hell of a conspiracy. So, on the basis of all of the information that has come out, I have chosen to believe the other men. I absolutely do not know first hand." But James Rassmann, who Kerry is reported to have pulled back into the boat after Rassmann was knocked overboard after an explosion, "said he has never had any question that Kerry deserved the Purple Heart."[4]

According to the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Information Packet, the Steering Committee consists of:

• Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman, USN (ret), Chairman
• Captain Charley Plumly, USN (ret)
• Mr. Alvin A. Horne
• Mr. Bill Lannom
• Mr. John O'Neill
• Mr. William E. Franke
• Mr. Weymouth "Wey" Symmes, Treasurer

Commentary

• On May 17, 2004, Matt Gunn shares a segment from Joe Conason's recent registration-required Salon "uncovering" of "yet more 'Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' Republican ties, as if there weren't enough on record already" [Gunn comments]:

"When the 'Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' launched its campaign against John Kerry 10 days ago, leadership and guidance were provided by Republican activists and presidential friends from Texas -- notably Houston attorney John E. O'Neill and corporate media consultant Merrie Spaeth.

"On closer inspection, the ostensibly nonpartisan 'Swift Boat Vets' seem to have another pair of significant sponsors with deep and long-standing Republican connections in Missouri. Both are officers of Gannon International, a St. Louis conglomerate that does lots of overseas business in, of all places, the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.

"Ties to Gannon can be traced via the Swift Boat Vets Web site ... On April 14, the site was registered under the name of Lewis Waterman, Gannon's information technology manager, at 11301 Olive Boulevard in St. Louis, the firm's headquarters address. Although Waterman wouldn't discuss why he had set up the Web site, he didn't deny that his boss, Gannon president and CEO William Franke, had asked him to do so.

"'The information about my client is confidential,' said Waterman. He acknowledged knowing, however, that his boss Franke is a Navy veteran who served in Vietnam on swift boats. Gannon vice president Stephen D. Hayes, who oversees the company's office in Alexandria, Va., is likewise a swift boat veteran who first met Franke when they served together in the Mekong Delta."

Franke first began traveling to Vietnam on behalf of "Operation Smile", an American charity that provides reconstructive plastic surgery to children around the world. Franke was instrumental in organizing and funding the first Operation Smile medical mission to Vietnam in 1989. Since that initial trip, Operation Smile has provided annual medical assistance to approximately two thousand Vietnamese children. As a consequence, the leadership of Gannon Distribution was involved in Vietnam when few other American individuals or organizations were. Unlike many companies now interested in Vietnam, Gannon Distribution's presence is based on these longstanding friendships and relationships.

"What some liberal activists believe is suspicious about Franke, Hayes, and Gannon -- especially in light of their apparent role in the campaign against John Kerry -- are their strong commercial interests in Southeast Asia. While Gannon is a highly diversified holding company whose divisions range from real estate in Florida and Missouri to Internet technology and software, it maintains a presence in Vietnam, with offices in both Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City. Indeed, Gannon has operated in that country's tourism, real estate and import-export sectors for a decade. (The target market for its tours was fellow Vietnam veterans.)

"None of Gannon's profitable activities in the communist republic would be possible, of course, without the approval of the Hanoi government, which Franke has described as 'strong' and 'stable.' Nor would Gannon be conducting business in Vietnam without the Clinton administration diplomacy, assisted by Sen. Kerry, that established diplomatic and trade ties with the United States in 1994. It would appear that Franke, Hayes, and Gannon have placed their political convictions above their own corporate interests, since they are now going up against the same Democratic political machine that enabled them to do business in Vietnam.

"It was also during those early visits to Vietnam, as he told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, that Franke reached a clearer understanding of the war he had once fought as a young Navy lieutenant.

"'As I looked back 20 years, I saw that it was a very imperial relationship we had with these people,' said Franke in 1989. 'We were young. We were there because we were told to be there and that they were the enemy. This time I saw them as human beings who had fears and hopes the same as we.'

"Yet he evidently cannot forgive John Kerry for becoming a traitor to his shipmates and every other veteran who fought honorably in Vietnam by accusing US forces of committing war crimes and also lying about the circumstances under which he received his first purple heart."

• Joe Klein, "The Long War of John Kerry," The New Yorker, January 5, 2004 (Courtesy of Matt Gunn and Mike Stark):

"Nixon's chief counsel, Charles Colson, didn't just tap John E. O'Neill to attack Kerry, he also formed an entire group around him called Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace: [5]

"[Kerry] was an immediate celebrity. He was also an immediate target of the Nixon administration. Years later, Chuck Colson--who was Nixon's political enforcer--told me, 'He was a thorn in our flesh. He was very articulate, a credible leader of the opposition. He forced us to create a counterfoil. We found a vet named John O'Neill and formed a group called Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace. We had O'Neill meet the President, and we did everything we could do to boost his group."

"'Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' be seen as merely a 21st century reinvention of Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace."

• Joe Conason writes on May 4, 2004, in Salon that the "latest conservative outfit to fire an angry broadside against John Kerry's heroic war record is 'Swift Boat Veterans for Truth', which today launches a campaign to brand the Democrat 'unfit to serve as commander in chief.' Billing itself as representing the 'other 97 percent of veterans' from Kerry's Navy unit who don't support his presidential candidacy, the group insists that all presidential candidates must be 'totally honest and forthcoming' about their military service.

"These 'swift boat vets' claim still to be furious about Kerry's 1971 Senate testimony against the war in which he spoke about atrocities in Indochina's 'free fire zones.' More than three decades later," Conason writes, "facing the complicated truth about Vietnam remains difficult. But this group's political connections make clear that its agenda is to target" U.S. presidential election, 2004."

"Conason identifies "veteran corporate media consultant and Texas Republican activist Merrie Spaeth" as being behind the group. Spaeth, "listed as the group's media contact," is the widow of Tex Lezar, "eternal Kerry antagonist and Dallas attorney" John E. O'Neill's law partner.

The group's founder is "retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffman, a cigar-chomping former Vietnam commander once described as 'the classic body-count guy' who 'wanted hooches destroyed and people killed.'" Hoffmann "first gained notoriety in Vietnam as a strutting, cigar-chewing Navy captain. But it was O'Neill, by now a familiar figure on the Kerry-bashing circuit, who came to Spaeth for assistance," according to Conason.

"Until now," he adds, "Hoffmann has been best known as the commanding officer whose obsession with body counts and 'scorekeeping' may have provoked the February 1969 massacre of Vietnamese civilians at Thanh Phong by a unit led by Bob Kerrey -- the Medal of Honor winner who lost a leg in Nam, became a U.S. senator from Nebraska and now sits on the 9-11 Commission."

Conason says that Spaeth is not "as well known as" Karen P. Hughes but yet is "among the most experienced and best connected Republican communications executives. During the Reagan administration she served as director of the White House Office of Media Liaison, where she specialized in promoting "news" items that boosted President Reagan to TV stations around the country. While living in Washington she met and married Lezar, a Reagan Justice Department lawyer who ran for lieutenant governor of Texas in 1994 with George W. Bush, then the party's candidate for governor. (Lezar lost; Bush won.)"

Conason concludes that "Arguments about the war in Vietnam seem destined to continue forever. For now, however, the lingering bitterness and ambiguity of those days provide smear material against an antiwar war hero with five medals on behalf of a privileged Guardsman with a dubious duty record. The president's Texas allies -- whose animus against his Democratic challenger dates back to the Nixon era -- are now deploying the same techniques and personnel they used to attack McCain's integrity four years ago. Bush's 'independent' supporters would apparently rather talk about the Vietnam quagmire than about his deadly incompetence in Iraq."

• Hoffmania blogspot provides the following excerpt from the May 4, 2004, NewsMax article "Swift Boat Veterans Condemn Kerry As Unfit To Command". His comment follows the quote.

"O'Neill told NewsMax.com that the medals and their back stories were not the real issue being targeted by the organization, referring to the second paragraph of the letter to Kerry:

"It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, Marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us.) Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war."

"But it is with regard to the latter sentence of the charge that John E. O'Neill and others get vague.

"When asked by NewsMax if they had in mind any potential smoking gun of distortion that might be revealed by an unfettered examination of Kerry's military records, there was no answer forthcoming."

Contact information

PO Box 26184
Alexandria, VA 22313
[email protected]
http://www.swiftvets.com External Links

• "Texan, GOP donor helps finance anti-Kerry veterans group: Homebuilder has contributed to Bush campaign," CNN, August 6, 2004.
• Michael Kranish, "Veteran retracts (part of) criticism of Kerry," Boston Globe, August 6, 2004.
• "'We Know the Truth'. Some of Kerry’s Vietnam colleagues challenge the Democratic candidate,", National Review, May 4, 2004, Letter by SBVT to John Kerry. (The letter is signed by Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann, USN, Captain Charley Plumly, USN (ret), Mr. Alvin A. (Andy) Horne, Mr. Bill Lannom, Mr. John O'Neill, Mr. Wey Symmes, and Mr. William W. Franke.) Note: It is most likely that the correct name is William Edward Franke. See Franke's file for details.
• Thomas Lang, "Lost in the Fog of War Records," Campaign Desk, April 21, 2004.
• Marc Morano, "Kerry 'Unfit to be Commander-in-Chief,' Say Former Military Colleagues," CNSNews.com, May 3, 2004. (Promoted by the Media Research Center's Cybercast News Service).
• Joe Conason, "Smear Boat Veterans for Bush," Salon, May 4, 2004: "The 'swift boat' veterans attacking John Kerry's war record are led by veteran right-wing operatives using the same vicious techniques they used against John McCain four years ago."
• Bob Somerby, "Kerry’s accuser remembered it wrong. But so what?," The Daily Howler, May 5, 2004.
• Matt Gunn, "Swift Boat Veterans for a Big Lie" and "Swift Boat Followup," mattgunn.com, May 5 and May 6, 2004.
• "Who is John O'Neill? CNN's Blitzer failed to probe partisan ties of Kerry critic," Media Matters for America, May 4, 2004.
• John E. O'Neill, "Unfit for Office. I was on Mr. Kerry's boat in Vietnam. He doesn't deserve to be commander in chief," Wall Street Journal, May 4, 2004. Also see Thomas Lang, "Ambush by Pull-Quote," Campaign Desk, May 4, 2004.
• Glen Johnson and Michael Kranish, "$25m ad campaign showcases Kerry's career. Veterans group says he's unfit," Boston Globe, May 4, 2004.
• Richard Tompkins, "Vietnam vets slam Kerry," UPI, May 4, 2004.
• "Swift Boat Veterans Condemn Kerry As Unfit To Command," Newsmax, May 4, 2004.
• Michael Kranish, "Kerry's commanders speak out against him. Staff says assault is tied to GOP," Boston Globe, May 5, 2004.
• Michael Kranish, "Former sailor is drawn into battle. Archfoe reemerges to condemn Kerry," Boston Globe, May 5, 2004.
• Suzanne Goldenberg, "Kerry's Vietnam comrades join forces to tarnish war hero image," Guardian/UK, May 6, 2004.
• Joe Conason, "The Vietnam investor behind the "Swift Boat Vets" attack," Salon.com, May 14, 2004.
• Jodi Wilgoren, "Vietnam Veterans Buy Ads to Attack Kerry," New York Times, August 5, 2004.
• Ron Fournier, "McCain condemns anti-Kerry ads, calls on White House to follow suit," Associated Press, August 5, 2004.
• John F. Kerry's Official Navy Records.
• "Bush lauded by Medal of Honor winners,", The Washington Times, July 17, 2004.
• There are other veterans groups opposing Kerry too such as Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry and Vietnam Special Forces Against Kerry
• Bennet Roth, "Fellow veterans go to battle for Kerry", Houston Chronicle, July 30, 2004.
• David Paul Kuhn, "Kerry and the Vets", CBS News, July 26, 2004.
• Gregg Zoroya, "Vietnam crewmates steady at Kerry's side", USA Today, July 28, 2004.
• Nicole Casta, "Who is John O'Neill?", Media Matters for America, May 4, 2004.

Note: Portions of this article were taken from an article about Swift Boat Veterans in the Wikipedia.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

That’s only because there is no Kerry camp. There is only the anti Bush camp and they do not allow criticism of anyone other then Bush

Could be because Bush is the only president who has made such a complete twat of himself in living memory.

Elections are not won by challengers,ever.They are lost by incumbents.And at the moment,the Republican party can smell defeat.

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by taranaki

Could be because Bush is the only president who has made such a complete twat of himself in living memory.

Elections are not won by challengers,ever.They are lost by incumbents.And at the moment,the Republican party can smell defeat.

No on number one

Yes on number two.

America has a long history on mistakes made by both democrats and republicans. But shouldn't we be laying some blame on the congress for supporting or making these faulty decisions.

[carrrnuttt]

More: http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

More: http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231

Summed up nicely with

At this point, 35 years later and half a world away, we see no way to resolve which of these versions of reality is closer to the truth.

So like all political ads - a few grains of salt are needed.

[carrrnuttt]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

Summed up nicely with

So like all political ads - a few grains of salt are needed.

Well, there's the story from the people who were actually there (Kerry, and his boatmates who are campaigning for him - one's even a registered Republican), and there's the story from Kerry's superiors at the time, and other officers, who were out commanding their own boats - oh and a flimsy statement from a doctor who says that Kerry's injuries "weren't that bad".

You be the judge.

[thegladhatter]

Originally Posted by SniperX13

I would though, like a site or two that might have comments from Bush's old crew mates. get both sides. I bet there are those who would say the same about him.

There is a pretty big difference here. Bush hasn't been going around holding himself up as a big hero. He didn't take all his medals...throw them away in a war protest and then lie about it...

It seems strange to me that anyone finds serving in the National Guard as being dishonorable. It wasn't when I served in the Army. Now it is?