rally cars of today vs. rally cars of 80's

[FordJunky]

i.e. sti and evo vs. audi quattro sport and ford rs200 evo.

now in terms of speed the ford and audi are balls out faster (rs200 evo 0-60 in 2.1) but what about handling and all around performance? has it gotten any better?

[kman10587]

I don't know that much about older rally cars. I love the new STi and Evo 8 MR, though.

[NISSANSPDR]

This is the RS200



This is the Audi that revolutionized/invented AWD...



Cannot forget the Lancia Stratos



Or the Delta Integrale Evo

[DinanM3_S2]

gotta love the old Audi Rally Cars, it seems they do well in almost any motorsport they bother trying at.

[kfoote]

Given equal tires, the Gruppe B Rally cars would be faster than today's WRC counterparts. Todays cars handle much better and are easier to drive, mostly due to the better technology in the differentials. That having been said, it's still hard to catch up to a car that has 2.5 times the power and 1.5 times the tourque no matter how much better it handles.

[engineer]

old rally cars... definately more inspiration there. i want to buy one day, a audi quattro or a HF integrale... well if i could id buy a DELTA S4 - woah. they are absolute rockets and would whip the pants off the new WRC cars, on the faster rallies definately and probably on tighter rallys 2, they are so light. btw a good thing to note is the quattro (a 5 cyl 2.3 l turbo) is rwd based awd = better and stronger

[Moppie]

I was watching some of the WRC coverage the other day and they run a stage somewhere in Europe that hadn't changed very much since the Group B days. (this dosn't happen very often, as rally stages and the roads used are always being altered year to year).
The new WRC cars were all posting times generaly faster than the old Group B cars.

The technology has advanced to much, that despite haveing sevral hundred hp less, the WRC cars have much wider torque curve to work with, and are to corner much much faster.

In absolute perofmance the WRC cars have caught up to the Group B cars, and in most circumstances are now faster.

But in raw ooomph! Theres nothing like standing on the side of the raod as a restored Group B car goes past running absolutly flat out!

[engineer]

have u seen those vids of group B in car footage where everywhere the track is lined with hundreds of people and u will turn a corner and there will be people on the track and running to get off before u turn them into roadkill? thats 2 scary i wouldnt have been able to drive flat out. all those people....

[Jimster]

No question about it- Todays cars don't stand a chance against the Group B cars in sheer badass appeal. The Ford RS200 and Lancia 037 are undoubtedly my favourite rally cars ever.

[kfoote]

Originally Posted by Moppie

I was watching some of the WRC coverage the other day and they run a stage somewhere in Europe that hadn't changed very much since the Group B days. (this dosn't happen very often, as rally stages and the roads used are always being altered year to year).
The new WRC cars were all posting times generaly faster than the old Group B cars.

The technology has advanced to much, that despite haveing sevral hundred hp less, the WRC cars have much wider torque curve to work with, and are to corner much much faster.

In absolute perofmance the WRC cars have caught up to the Group B cars, and in most circumstances are now faster.

But in raw ooomph! Theres nothing like standing on the side of the raod as a restored Group B car goes past running absolutly flat out!

One big thing to remember...Tire technology has come a LONG way in the last 20 years. I'm more familiar with road racing, but for perspective the fastest DOT approved track tires are about 1.5 sec/mile faster than the fastest DOT approved track tires of 5 years ago. The Group B cars would run faster on a modern all-season radial than the tires they were running at the time.

[Layla's Keeper]

Well, to say it was simply the tires is to ignore the breakthroughs in chassis design, drivetrain, and construction that modern WRC cars have made.

Remember, the Group B cars generally didn't have sequential gearboxes, had mechanical diffs (often locked) as compared to the active electronic diffs that even street Evo's have, and were still frequently constructed of fiberglass and steel as opposed to primarily aluminum and carbon fiber.

And, to go into semantics, the Lancia Stratos was not a Group B car. It was the car to beat in the class that came before Group B, often running against.....



Fiat Abarth 131's.



MkI Cosworth Escorts



and the Alpine-Renault A110

[drunken monkey]

...also don't forget, on a rally stage, there's only so much power you can put down on the road.
too much power=too much wheelspin=too much time NOT going forwards.
hence slower times.
also kinda explains why the times were slower AND more accidents+deaths....

[NISSANSPDR]

Originally Posted by Layla's Keeper

And, to go into semantics, the Lancia Stratos was not a Group B car. It was the car to beat in the class that came before Group B, often running against.....

I never said it was a Group B car...the topic said nothing of Group B cars...it said...rally cars of the 80's...

I think it was around that time it came out...if not late 70's

[Layla's Keeper]

The Lancia Stratos first appeared in the early to mid 70's, a shared project with Ferrari (not the first nor the last time Lancia and Ferrari would collaborate on a racing car).

The Stratos began as a styling excercise by Bertone in 1970, and entered both competition and production in 1974. The car was phased out in 1979, and was replaced by the O37.

[kfoote]

Originally Posted by Layla's Keeper

Well, to say it was simply the tires is to ignore the breakthroughs in chassis design, drivetrain, and construction that modern WRC cars have made.

Remember, the Group B cars generally didn't have sequential gearboxes, had mechanical diffs (often locked) as compared to the active electronic diffs that even street Evo's have, and were still frequently constructed of fiberglass and steel as opposed to primarily aluminum and carbon fiber.
...

There is no doubt that there have been tremendous advances in the areas you mention (plus others, such as brakes and aerodynamics), and that the result is that the current generation of WRC cars would have higher cornering speeds than the group B cars even on the same tires. On some of the very tight twisty stages (think Monte Carlo) it is very possible that the current WRC cars would be faster even on the same tires.

AFAIK, there is only one car that's ever been made that was not really able to use the full potential of the engine that was in it. The Porsche 917/30 was only run at full boost once, on the back straight at Mosport when Mark Donahue's teammate (I believe it was George Follmer at the time, not 100% sure) outqualified him and Donahue turned up the boost on the back straight on the first lap to pass him.