b18b vs b16a

[crabby760]

i want to go turbo a friend of mine has a almost built b18b1 ls motor

it has crower cams/ vavles/springs/retainers and port and polished head all i need to do is build the botome end... then i want to go turbo on it also has a stage 3 clutch and a 12 lbs lightned flywheel

rite now i have a b16a stock just i/h/e


wich is better for now and wich is better when i go turbo!!!!

[boosted331]

Get the LS, sell the cams, etc or the head as one piece, swap on a VTEC head and then turbo it.

[Beyond Imagination]

so are you buying your friends motor? it seems like it since you're building his motor up for him.

[scallywag]

def go with the b18b. The b18b can handle more psi of boost, and makes alot more power when boosted than the b16a will. Lets put it this way. Stock vs stock. the b16a and the b18b are about Itenicle in the 1/4. The b16 has more hp, but less torque, and the ls has a super bottom end. Here is another comparison. the gsr motor b18c1 can handle 8 pounds of boost (more if tuned really well), and will put out about 250 whp with that, and like 180 lb of torque. The ls stock can boost safely to 12 psi (again more if tuned really well), which is close to around the 300whp mark, with well over 200 lb of torque. at 10 psi the ls makes 250 whp, so boosted to 12 it would make probably 280-290whp. Now the gsr makes more hp, and torque at 8 psi, than the b16a does, thus with the b16a you will not be making anywhere near as much power as you would with the b18b. The b18b is the best stock honda motor to boost. If you are going to be changing pistons and rods, then the b18c1 is a better platform to work from, but since it is between the b18b, and the b16a, then def go with the b18b. Especially since it already has alot done to it. And like mentoned above, you could always make the ls into a ls/vtec by taking the b16 head from your motor if you aren't planning on selling it, then throwing it on the ls bottome and then boosting, but I would say stay with the ls head since it is built! Good luck

[crabby760]

ok my mind is set now... im gonna take the b18b

with the mods the b18b has rite now will it pull harder than my b16a with i/h/e

[civickiller]

do not listen to that guy, he is dumb and doesnt know what hes talking about.

the ls wont make more power when boosted the same, the b16 will and the ls wont handle more boost. and you think you can boost a ls to 12psi and more if you tune it really well, wtf is that. anything above 8psi on any b series needs to be tuned really well, i would say any boost at all needs to be tuned well.

the safe hp on any b series, maybe not the b20s but for b18's, b16 the limit is 300hp. now there are people going past that and pushing the barrier but for now they say 300hp is the limit. it just needs to be tuned really well

as for which is better for boost, both engines are the same so just take your pick, which ever oen you like better.

just remember dont listen to that dumbass. the only thing he is right about is that the b18c is a better engine to start with. and the ls vtec

[scallywag]

Hey dip shit. I didn't say when boosted the same. And stock ls's can easily handle 12 psi of boost. Like mentioned above a b18c1 with 8 psi makes 250whp. and an ls boosted to 10psi (ya 10, not 8) makes about 240 whp, but much more torque, so when boosted to 12 psi you will be making more like 270-280whp range. This is on completely stock block with a turbo kit, not even a custom one. And those numbers are with the b18c1 not the b16a which will make less power. And even b18c1's can be boosted higher if tuned right. There is a guy on here JCRX who showed me a dyno chart of a stock gsr boosted to 10 psi making 300+whp. I will find you the dino charts if you don't believe me. I didn't put out those munbers becasue I thought it would look cool

[scallywag]

Originally Posted by Jeff@Import BUilders
Then we got another one on a comepletely stock GSR longblock with over 100k miles on it boosting 10 PSI making 330+ WHP with our turbo kit on it, running 11's.

If I could figre out how to post pics, I will show you a dyno chart of a stock gsr motor boosting 10 psi with a max power of 300 whp. So don't tell me you can't run more than 8 psi on any b series motor. And remember the ls can handle more boost than the b18c1 due to the lower compression pistons. I have seen many ls's boosted to 12 psi easy, with a good tune. You are right it is always wise to have a good tune with a turbo set up, but you can easily run 12 psi on stock ls, and with really good tuning higher.

[civickiller]

you said if a ls and b16 are boosted the same, the ls will make more power. no it wont, the b16 will make more power. you said hte ls will make alot more power then the b16 when boosted, oh yeah if you run more boost on the ls then that is true but same boost the b16 will make more hp so your statement is not equal in a sense that you gotta run more boost in the ls to match the power of a b16.

and i didnt say you couldnt boost a honda motor more then 8, i said if you plan on boosting more then 8 you better get it tuned good. the amount a motor will handle does have to do with how much psi but its more about hp. thats why i said b series can be run to 300hp.

you see what i was getting at was that you said an ls will easily handle 12psi and more if tuned right. thats not true you gotta tune it real good before 12, you should start to tune it good after 8psi not 12 and then tune after that.

you see, i do believe that a b18c could make 300+whp on 10psi, what i dont agree with is what you said, oh gotta start tuning after 12psi and taht a ls will make more power then a b16, you gotta start tuning before 12psi and the b16 will make more power

and no the ls wont handle more boost due to cr, because of the higher cr you will reach the stock block limit sooner, also reach the limits of pump gas sooner. you can runa gsr at 10psi and you can run a ls at 10psi. you could also run a gsr at 12psi and run a ls at 12psi, it all just needs to be tuned right, and at the same boost level the hp goes in this rank, gsr highest, b16 next, and ls lowest. again i didnt say that it cant be boosted more then 8psi, plz read what i wrote again.

[scallywag]

Originally Posted by civickiller

you said if a ls and b16 are boosted the same, the ls will make more power. no it wont, the b16 will make more power. you said hte ls will make alot more power then the b16 when boosted, oh yeah if you run more boost on the ls then that is true but same boost the b16 will make more hp so your statement is not equal in a sense that you gotta run more boost in the ls to match the power of a b16.

and i didnt say you couldnt boost a honda motor more then 8, i said if you plan on boosting more then 8 you better get it tuned good. the amount a motor will handle does have to do with how much psi but its more about hp. thats why i said b series can be run to 300hp.

you see what i was getting at was that you said an ls will easily handle 12psi and more if tuned right. thats not true you gotta tune it real good before 12, you should start to tune it good after 8psi not 12 and then tune after that.

you see, i do believe that a b18c could make 300+whp on 10psi, what i dont agree with is what you said, oh gotta start tuning after 12psi and taht a ls will make more power then a b16, you gotta start tuning before 12psi and the b16 will make more power

and no the ls wont handle more boost due to cr, because of the higher cr you will reach the stock block limit sooner, also reach the limits of pump gas sooner. you can runa gsr at 10psi and you can run a ls at 10psi. you could also run a gsr at 12psi and run a ls at 12psi, it all just needs to be tuned right, and at the same boost level the hp goes in this rank, gsr highest, b16 next, and ls lowest. again i didnt say that it cant be boosted more then 8psi, plz read what i wrote again.

Dude you really got to read my posts again. I never said at the same psi the ls will make more power, becasue that is not true, I said a ls boosted at 10psi is about the same as a gsr boosted at 8 psi. The gsr would make about 10more hp, but about 20 less torque at those psi (well depending on the turbo set up, but with a kit turbo like rev hard). And on that last paragraph you are 100 % wrong. Why do you think when you replace pistons and rods when you build the bottom of a gsr for boost you lower the c/r......BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU ABLE TO RUN MORE BOOST! A gsr cannot run 12 psi unless you replace the headgasket with a thicker one to lower the compression ratio, and you get a oil pressure regulator, whereas you can run 12 easy on a stock ls, and 14 when tuned really really well. I know of many ls's boosted to 12 psi with minimal tuning that have been running good for the last 2 years! I have yet to see a gsr boosted to 12 psi wihout rods and pistons that lasted any legnth of time at all, or like I mentoned a new headgasket and a oil pressure regulator! So NO not every b series honda motor can handle the same amount of boost in stock form. Non of the vtec motors can handle as much as the ls for one reason...BECAUSE THEIR COMPRESSION IS HIGHER! It is true the higher compression you have in the motor the more power you will make per psi, but you cannot run as much boost becasue it puts more stress on on the rods, and you run the risk of detonation with the inconsistancies in pump gas! So I am sorry if you misunder stood anything I said, but you should really read things better before you go off calling me a dumbass!!!!!!!!! That is pretty dick! And I am sorry but you are very wrong about many things. Ask anyone on this forum who knows anything about turbos and they will tell you that in stock foum the ls can handle more boost than a b18c1, or a b16a, b18c5 due to thier higher compression ratios! That is a fact. I didn't just pull that out of my ass.

[jcrx]

Originally Posted by scallywag

Non of the vtec motors can handle as much as the ls for one reason...BECAUSE THEIR COMPRESSION IS HIGHER! It is true the higher compression you have in the motor the more power you will make per psi, but you cannot run as much boost becasue it puts more stress on on the rods, and you run the risk of detonation with the inconsistancies in pump gas!

Problem is tuning is everything, and a vtec motor can make more power on less PSI than a non vtec. But big Hp numbers are for show, and to win dick swinging contest. I'd rather be able to get less hp to the ground than have my car jumping off a dyno, or better yet spinning through third with no traction.

http://www.importbuilders.com/turbosetup.html

Read here about some practicality, and usable power. Pay attention to where he talks about torque and hooking up, it's effects on racing, and drivability.

[civickiller]

did you not say this in your first post ?

The b18b can handle more psi of boost, and makes alot more power when boosted than the b16a will

now correct me if i am wrong but that says a ls will make more power when boosted then a b16. am i wrong in the translation of that ?

your idea of boost pressure being the key factor is wrong, you look at hp numbers not psi numbers because you will reach hp limits before you reach boost limits. why do people lower their cr when they replace pistons, because they dont really know about tuning and hp figures. like when i buy pistons for my motor i am going to up hte stock ls compression probably to 9.5 or 10 because it will overall make more hp per psi. again not looking at psi more of hp. yes lowering hte compression will allow for more boost but like i said your focusing too much on psi level and not hp level which you should be looking at. why would you lower hte cr when you can make 300whp at 8psi or you can lower hte cr and make 300whp at 12psi. why would you do that ?

and there are alot of guys running 12psi on there stock gsr block, 12psi easy on an ls, i dont think so. if it was that easy then everybody would boost there ls to 12psi but not everyone does it. you see a ls at 12psi needs to be tuned really well, not 14, a ls above 8psi needs to be tuned really well. if you run 12psi in your untuned ls motor you will blow your motor.

again your thinking is off, you dont turbo a motor for psi, you turbo a motor for a hp number. you dont say oh yeah i want 15psi, you say i want 300hp. if you tune a gsr really well it can run just as much psi as an ls but on the gsr you will reach hp limits sooner so there is no need to go as high as a ls to reach a certain hp number. you have to get over psi and get more into hp numbers

[scallywag]

Originally Posted by civickiller

did you not say this in your first post ?

The b18b can handle more psi of boost, and makes alot more power when boosted than the b16a will

now correct me if i am wrong but that says a ls will make more power when boosted then a b16. am i wrong in the translation of that ?

your idea of boost pressure being the key factor is wrong, you look at hp numbers not psi numbers because you will reach hp limits before you reach boost limits. why do people lower their cr when they replace pistons, because they dont really know about tuning and hp figures. like when i buy pistons for my motor i am going to up hte stock ls compression probably to 9.5 or 10 because it will overall make more hp per psi. again not looking at psi more of hp. yes lowering hte compression will allow for more boost but like i said your focusing too much on psi level and not hp level which you should be looking at. why would you lower hte cr when you can make 300whp at 8psi or you can lower hte cr and make 300whp at 12psi. why would you do that ?

and there are alot of guys running 12psi on there stock gsr block, 12psi easy on an ls, i dont think so. if it was that easy then everybody would boost there ls to 12psi but not everyone does it. you see a ls at 12psi needs to be tuned really well, not 14, a ls above 8psi needs to be tuned really well. if you run 12psi in your untuned ls motor you will blow your motor.

again your thinking is off, you dont turbo a motor for psi, you turbo a motor for a hp number. you dont say oh yeah i want 15psi, you say i want 300hp. if you tune a gsr really well it can run just as much psi as an ls but on the gsr you will reach hp limits sooner so there is no need to go as high as a ls to reach a certain hp number. you have to get over psi and get more into hp numbers

Yes I did say this. The ls can handle more pounds of boost than the gsr. I have already explainded that. And when I was saying the b18b makes alot more power I was referring to the ls at 12 psi and the b18c (becasue I don't have dyno sheets for the b16a) at 8psi...Which would not be at the same amount of boost! Like I mentoned I have some dyno sheets of a completely stock gsr motor at 8 psi on a kit turbo making 250 whp. (8 is pretty high for a gsr motor, and 10 is topps with everything stock on this particular kit) and I have a dyno sheet of a stock ls boosted to 10 psi makeing about 10 whp less, but about 20-25 lb of torque more! Now the ls can handle 12 pretty easy and I have buddies with this exact set up right now running great for around 2 years now! Tuning a gsr to 8 psi, and a ls to 12 is about the same amount of tuning for both... yes they do have to be tuned well. but not to extreme. Like I said above 8 on the gsr needs very very good tuning, and above 12 on the ls is the same. I am not saying below that you don't need tuning, it just doesn't need like a hella good tune, it can get away with a pretty good tune. As my friends ls's are just mildly tuned and running great. And yes I know it isn't psi that is the ultimate factor in how much power you are going to make....really the main issue is cfm! But I was giving this guy of general idea of what you will make at what psi on a kit turbo and stock block. And I know it is hp numbers you want to shoot for not a psi, because hp can be very different for different turbos and the same psi... again I was giving an example if kit turbos I have seen and have dyno sheets for and stating what they made at what psi. And one thing I neglected to mention is the ls block is a stronger block. It can handle more hp ( which means more psi as well) than the gsr block. It isn't much stronger, but it can handle more, and really it isn't that it makes that much more hp boosted, it makes alot more torque when boosted. And I am afraid you are wrong about the gsr being able to handle just as much psi as a ls block it just hits the hp limit faster. That my friend is false. If the gsr hits its hp limit at 10 psi, and the ls hits its limit at 12-14, and they are making the same hp at those numbers, then which one is running a higer psi.... The ls! All things being equal of course i.e. same turbo set up! ther is no way a gsr can run as much psi ultimatly as a ls block can. They may be able to reach close to the same power numbers, but the ls takes more psi to get there, and can handle more due to its lower compression ratio. You seem to have contradicted yourself from earlier. Earlier you said c/r has nothing to do with how many pounds of boost you can run, then just now you said,"yes if you lower the compression you can boost more." that is all I was saying. It is much more stable to have a c/r of 9.0:1 or 9.4:1, than to have a c/r of above 10:1, or 11:1. Yes you do make more hp per pound of boost if the compreession is higher, but it also becomes more unstable, and you run a higher risk of detonation. Again I will re-iderate, the ls make about the same power figures at 10 psi, as a gsr does at 8 psi on your average kit turbo (not custom) the ls handles 12 psi about as easy as a gsr handles 8 psi. Not saying it is way easy to boost to those, but they are equally as easy, and hard tuning wise. Ya you can squeeze more out of both, but with very very good tuning. In the end on a completely stock motor, the ls can make more power and alot more torque than the b16 can. We are talking sheer power here, not wheather or not it is better to have more power or not, but speeking just in terms of power, the b18b can make more on stock internals easier. Not to mention the long gearing of the ls is very boost friendly. I am not saying it is nessisarily a better motor, in fact I sold my ls and got a gsr. I think the gsr is a better platform to start from personally but, i know a stock ls boosted to 12 psi on a kit turbo, is going to take a stock gsr boosted to 8 psi on the same kit turbo, and ya you could always tune one more than the other, but with equal tuning that is what both of those can handle, and the gsr would be making about 250 whp, and the ls about 270+whp, with alot more torque. Basically what you are saying also true that they can both handle roughly the same amount of hp (though the ls can handle a bit more because it's block is a little stronger), but it takes alot more tuning to get the b16a there than it does the b18b. And need you forget the torque numbers. Really saying which makes more hp ultimatly is usless, becasue there will always be someone who can mega tune your car to find even more hp, but what I am saying is all things being equal as in about the same amount of tuning the b18b will make more power! I hope that clears up what I was getting at, I do understand what you are getting at and you make good points as well, but you are thinking in different terms than I am, and still need some things cleared up! I hope you understand what I was getting at now! In the future don't call someone a dumbass becasue you didn't understand what they ment by what they said, I do know what I am talking about.

[jcrx]

I'm not even going to get into a bench dyno hp race on this one because it's usless. But such and such a motor on XXPSI dosn't mean jackshit. I can show you a stock B16A making 236whp on 7psi, and I can show you a stock LS making 195whp on 7psi, so what? Did it prove anything? No, there's more to it than XX:1 CR, at XXPSI is going to do this on that motor, it's called, and is all about tuning.

And this annoys me...

Not to mention the long gearing of the ls is very boost friendly

Maybe to make the motor more timid. No time, never, is a longer geared tranny, going to be better for acceleration, ever. Boosted, supercharged, N/A shorter gears are faster.

[scallywag]

I wasn't meaning to say that the long gearing is better for accerleration, because I know that it isn't, I was just adding that the long gearing does make it boost friendly and can handle alot of it pretty safe. It doesn't make any more power, or quicker off the line, sorry if that came out wrong. And I do know that tuning is everything. I was trying to simplify things for the guy with the question. I was speaking in terms of your average kit turbo on a stock motor. I wasn't nessisarily saying that more power is better, as the article you posted whent over very well. But civickiller was trying to tell me that the b16a can handle more psi (same turbo on both motors, and same amount of tuning. ie everything equal) than a b18b. That is false, but like you say it does all come down to tuning. I know that there will always be someone who can tune and find or make more power in any motor!