Gas in my oil.... any ideas on a fix... I have tried numerous things... no luck

[chatterx]

1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2.2 Turbo 2

I am having a problem with gas getting in my oil (or a gassy smell to the oil) and it is thinning it out, I have changed the oil 4 times since the rebuild and the motor only has 400 miles on it. I have tried many things to remedy this and no luck, also this car had the same problem before the rebild as well.... Here is what I have added new to the car so far.

Engine rebuild .30 over (new gaskets, pistons, rings, bearings, camshaft, lifters)
Rebuilt Turbo with Quick spool option added from Turbos Unleashed
Adjustable Wastegate Actuator
Valve Job
Stage 3 ECU from FWD
Mopar oxygen Sensor
autolite 63 plugs gapped at .35
plug wires
cap and rotor
starter
120 amp alternator
804 Injectors added about a year and a half before rebuild
K&N Drop in air filter
Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator from FWD
HEP
Distributor is fairly new as well
PCV Valve
Breather Filter
Air/Fuel Guage

My base pressure is at 58lbs. vacuum line unhooked. The regulator is not leaking gas in the vacuum line. The car is not running rich. the plugs are tannish white in color. I have removed the CAT. and the vapor cannister is not hooked up. My vacuum at idle is around 18 or a little over. I could not tell you what kinda mileage I am getting because the odometer dont work (will be fixing that soon). My boost is at 16lbs and I am running full rich at thatlevel too, heck I tried 20lbs and it was still running rich, but I backed it down to what my computer is made to handle

My compression readings are 115 115 120 115. I know these are low, i need to get a adjustable cam sprocket because I know its about a half a tooth off. Could gas be getting past my rings?? How long does it take for rings to seat properly?

The oil that I have in it now is Mobil sythetic and it seemed to last a bit longer than the conventional oil, but I cannot afford to change the oil every 100 miles LOL.

I am completely stumped here... any ideas? I love driving this car and I refuse to drive it with this condition going on.

[pind]

part of your problem is using synthetic oil. It is not a good plan to use it for the break in period, better to use petroleum oils for the first 5000 or so miles, as with the synthetics, the rings will not seat properly, and you will have grief. good luck

[chatterx]

the first 3 oil changes were regular petroleum oil. I just used the sythetic last time to see if there would be any difference. but thanx for the suggestion though

[pind]

ok, well, you were saying you only had about 400 miles since the rebuild, that does not constitute a break in period for any engine bigger than about 125cc.

The low compression issue is resolved normally by the boost as the turbo spools up. Too high compression, and you have a grenade.

I am not sure on the 2.2 if the injectors are anywhere near an oil jacket / gallery. If they are, that could be a weak point. It could also be that the injectors are leaking slightly, dumping gas into the engine when it is not running, and washing the cylinder walls. Thus creating the gas in oil problem.

I do know people that have had trouble with injector o-rings from time to time, and they can be the most simple culprit in a case like that.

So, go back to petroleum oils for a while yet, and check out anything on the fuel delivery side.

[chatterx]

thanx for the reply. I did a leak test on my injectors over a 24 hour period and nothing leaked out.

Could you go into further details on how a o-ring can cause this problem??

how many miles does it take for the engine to usually break in??

I plan on going to the junkyard to buy a set of stock injectors to see if this will remedy my situation.

[pind]

On the automotive rebuilds that I do, for break in, I assemble the engine with friction master asembly lube, then when it fires up, check for oil pressure etc. and run it for about 20 minutes. I usually use 5w30 esso or valvoline oils. I then do a very short road trip, 20 km or less, easy on the throttle, and drop the oil and filter. I refill with fresh oil, new filter, and run it for approx. 500 km, at which point I change the oil again, and refill / filter / run it to 5000 km, and then change oil every 5000 km after that.

I tend to wait until around the 5 - 10,000 km change to bother with synthetic. This gives the various components in the engine time to take a good set with each other, including rings, bearings and so on.

5000 km is roughly 3000 miles.

Now, as far as o-rings go, if there is a twisted, torn, nicked, or otherwise bad o-ring on an injector, it can allow fuel to leak by it. If the injectors happen to go through or past an oil gallery, this can cause cross contamination. Or, it can allow fuel to pool in the intake, or farther downstream as it leaks into 1 or more cylinders.

Just for info, what kind of leak test did you do?

This is going to sound borderline special, but, sometimes when you bring the system up to full pressure, be it 50 - 60 - 70 psi, it will actually mask the problem, as it can cause the o-ring to pressure seal itself. When the pressure drops back, the o-ring seal then becomes compromised again, and allows fuel to leak by.

I have had this problem before on TBI vehicles, where once the system pressured up, the o ring under the injector worked fine, but on the way up to pressure, as well as after the pressure dropped back a little, the o-ring would start to leak.

How about that for some brain munchies. Good luck on it, let me know.

[BleedDodge]

I like pind's method.

[chatterx]

On the leak test I took the fuel rail out of the intake and had a friend turn the car over so I could see if one or more was constantly spraying but no they were cycling like they were supposed to and they had a good spray pattern. then I set the rail on some cardboard and let it sit there. After checking every 15 minutes or so there were no leaks on the cardboard. I left them out for 24 hours like that too. also I did a fuel pressure test beforehand and the pressure would hold at its 58lbs when the car was off for a good 45 minutes or a bit more. after about 12 hours the pressure would be down to zero.

The injectors are about 2 years old. I installed the o-rings using petroleum jelly on the outsides of both o-rings (one that goes into fuel rail and other that goes in intake)

if I am not mistaken the injectors do not go through or past and oil gallery,they just sit in the intake and the fuel they spray is sucked through the intake ports in the head. Thats why I am having a hard time seeing how a o-ring could cause this when one o-ring is just sitting in the intake and the top ring is in the fuel rail. I am not saying your wrong by any means at all.

[pind]

OK, dumb question # 203458761 part a:

How close are the injectors to the intake manifold / head mating surface. If the answer is very close, you might want to make sure that the flange and associated area is not warping under bolt torque. On alloy parts, this is very important.

I am pretty sure the answer to your problem is a simple one, and I am going to consult with some of the guys who ice race these cars, to see what their experience is with it as well. Meantime, we will continue trying to find a sensible solution.

[chatterx]

ok here is a link to a pic of the intake, you can see where the injectors go in at. They are about a inch and half away from the mounting area

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo/t1t2intake.jpg

How can I make sure it is not warping. I tried spraying carb cleaner round the intake the car did not idle up

[pind]

try spraying something flammable. Carb cleaner is horrible for that purpose. wd-40 works better from my experience

[chatterx]

alrighty I will do that first thing in the morning, when the motor is cold and when the motor is warm. I do remember though about a week ago I did use some wd-40 on the top of the intake flange when the car was running and it didnt idle up. I was spraying wd-40 around the injectors to see if the o-rings were leaking too

however I did not try it on the bottom flange because I would have to get under the car for that one

[chatterx]

I tried spraying wd40 around the intake,no difference but it very well may be injector trouble. I found a good read on injectors and they have some bad things to say about 804 injectors. link to the site is below.... however this is what is confusing me about my injectors is on the package they were in had the number P4452804 (804's) well according to this page they say that the 804's dont flow like they are supposed to and to use number 5277895 injector.... but that number is stamped on my injectors. but give it a read if you have time and lemme know what you think.

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/perf/fuel.html

but is also goes on to say this

There are three different Turbo I part numbers because the style of the fuel injector and fuel rail changed in 1985 and again in 1988. They actually increased the fuel flow to the early Turbo II engines from 32 lbs/hr to 34.85 lbs/hr. This is equivalent to adding 10psi of fuel pressure! If you have to replace your early Turbo II injectors, you'll probably want an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to lean your mixture back out. While the computer can compensate for the richer mixture during normal throttle operations, the 1987 Turbo II logic module cannot compensate for the richer mixture during cold start and WOT. Later computers could, to some degree.

Right now I am running 58lbs of pressure... 3lb over stock. according to the above site my pressure is 13lbs to high. interesting

[pind]

That is some good reading there. I like how they explain things clearly. And, i can see what they are driving at about running way too rich at cold, and WOT.
Seems a little odd, if you are not used to chrysler products, to think that the 803 - 804 injectors don't always work the way they are supposed to. On the other hand, if you are used to chrysler product, its not a huge surprise.

Seriously though, although I am not sure that overfueling is the total cause, if it is running hugely rich at idle, it could be causing the contamination as the fuel leaks down past the rings.

And here is a stupid question again, how did you position your ring gaps when you rebuilt the engine?

Hmmm, its getting more clear by the minute. I am going to digest that article, and bat it around a little.

[chatterx]

well I am used to chrysler products but not turbo products. What i think may be happening is that when the car is cold the rings are not fully expanded from the heat and the extra fuel may be getting past there or when at Wide Open Throttle the added boost pressure in the cylinders combined with the extra fuel is getting past the rings. And if this is the case, my rings may never seat because the fuel is basically washing away the rings not allowing a proper seating.

On the position of the piston rings top ring gap is opposite side of the second rings gap and the oil ring(s) gap is halfway between top and second rings gap (hopefully that is a clear explanation)