1995 3.8L Ford Windstar - Converter worn

[searcherrr]

Can anyone tell me what the difference is in these two transmissions for my windstar in the subject line?

A.T., 6-232 (3.8L), ID F48P-BA
A.T., 6-232 (3.8L), ID F48P-BB

Story - Had Vbody cover and pan gaskets leaking on transmission. Ford fixed it (allegedly) and also did a Tranny oil change. Since I drove it away I have driven it 3 times. The 3rd time was on the interstate (1st time driving the van on the interstate since owned; 2 months ago bought) and when we were on the interstate I noticed the rear window and tail end of the van was fast collecting dark soot. After it having sat parked for a while I drove it on the interstate again and noticed more soot. Finally I smelled something, looked underneath and saw fluid leaking from the tranny at the bottom of the pan and along the rear underbody metal parallel with the rear axle. Could Ford have caused this new leak (which they say is likely the seal where the converter is) just by fixing the vbody and pan gaskets on the previous visit? or would that be very unlikely? Would a tranny oil change possibly cause this to happen?
They say now that in order to fix this (which they are not sure if they need to replace the gasket and thought to be worn torque converter piece) that they must drop down the whole tranny to get to the converter and SEE if its worn. If it isn't, then they will just fix the converter gasket that is THEORIZED to be causing the leakage problem.
In addition to that they found an engine oil leak on the pan gasket? I didn't know the ENGINE had a PAN to have a GASKET. I thought it just had an oil reservoir that drained out of course at the drain plug.
Anyway, I'm now thinking since they are going to pull the tranny out (if I allow them to) that I might as well get a new USED low mileage transmission to plop in while I'm at it because the one in there now has 131,000 miles on it. This is why I asked what I asked above, because when I go searching online at car-part.com for a tranny I get those two options on the 3.8 engine. What is the significance of the BA and BB?
Would you not replace the transmission and just do the converter?
What do ya'll think? I'd appreciate an answer asap of course cause the van is in the shop and its supposed to be our SUMMER GET-AWAY vehicle.
Don't msg me saying to get rid of the van please. I'm aware of the situation and the miles n all, but I bought it purposely knowing I'd have some maintenance to deal with just not the TRANNY or this soon.
Thanks ahead of time.

[ModMech]

Well, it is very likely that the fluid change did cause this. You CANNOT change very old ATF (or burned) and expect the AT to live. ALL repair shops know this, as do the stealerships. So, in MY opinion, they should not suggest or even be WILLING to perform ATF changes on high mileage/burned ATF vehicles. To do so, is to almost gauarantee you'll return with a toasted AT.

If the leak IS from the area between the engine and trans where the torque converter is, it is most certainly the converter seal. It *could* be that one of the pump bolts backed out and a simple tightening is all that is needed, but it is VERY unlikely, and here's why....

When old dirty, burned ATF is replaced with new clean ATF in a modern transmission, the old is very "grippy", so the computer has learned to "soften up" the shifting to compensate (so you don't complain about harshness), when new "slippery" ATF is installed the computer takes a while (up to a week of daily driving) to re-adjust to the new fluid. Unfortunately, that's WAY too long and the slippage due to slippery new ATF and slow/soft shifts rapidly overheats the ATF. Overheated ATF breaks down rapidly, and hardens seals or even melts them causing leaks. Also, there are chemical problems with old ATF and NEW that contribute to slippage aside from the learned shifting stuff. Add it all up, and the torque converter is slipping at lock-up, the clutches are slipping because they cannot grip tightly enough, and you have toased ATF and leaks.

Most likely, you will need a new AT.

Also, the Torque Converter is not worn causing the leak. Well, the hub might show wear, but the CAUSE was the ATF change.

[searcherrr]

In light of all that you said I feel really screwed over. I am very careful when I go to the shop and I even provide them with a vehicle history before they do work so they know that I know whats going on. I had a hunch about the ATF change, but only when it was too late. All that you said makes sense and unfortunately I have to learn the hard way.

So when "IS" an ATF change OK to do? On lower mileage? Is that it?

Also, what if you could reset the "fuzzy logic" or learning computer when you change the ATF? Wouldn't that start the learning process over again as if the vehicle was NEW? thus it would be OK to change a HIGH MILEAGE ATX's ATF?

I'd already started looking for a new ATX yesterday online because I figured if I don't do it now while they'd take out the converter it just doesn't make any sense to do it later. Doing it later would cost me around 900 to 1000 more than it would if I did it now. Besides that I get piece of mind too with the new or new USED lower mileage ATX. I've found some low mileage ones for like 500 - 600 online and with like 60 - 80K on them. I found some other ones much lower than that for around the same prices, but have yet to confirm them. Someone listed a 17K ATX for that van for like 500. I couldn't believe and still don't, which is why I need to confirm it. In any case, this is a lot sooner than I'd hoped to replace the tranny but it was inevitable anyway. One thing is for sure though, I won't ever be going back to this same Ford "Stealership" again.

How hard would it be to change the tranny on my own? I am "CAPABLE", but I'd need to know what kind of tools I should have. Is it too heavy to drop out on my own? Do you need to prop it up before unscrewing it loose? Would I need a lift? I have jacks, but I'm thinking that wouldn't be enough.

I have a trusted shop that did an engine for me on my other car and they are very good and very trustworthy. They WOULD HAVE told me about the same thing you told me about here in this thread, except ahead of time. The only reason I went to the dealer was because I'd been there that first time getting the whole van "looked over" and checked in their Ford computer for a couple recalls that were listed on it. Never again.

Thanks so much for your information dude. I highly appreciate it, cause the van is still sitting over at the dealer. Been there since Monday. They are some slow motherfu***rs.

[ModMech]

According the the Ford powertrain engineer I have spoken with, the ONLY "safe" time to change ATF is when the following conditions are met:
1) Fluid is "clean", not dark brown/black (slightly dark is "ok").
2) There are fewer than 60K-70K miles since the LAST change.
3) It is NOT shifting "oddly" on old fluid.

He told me that if you change the ATF when ANY of the above ARE NOT true, you run a "significant risk of the Trans failing". So, I always tell people that if the vehicle has 70,000 miles or more on the odo, and you do not KNOW for sure the ATF has been changed before, DO NOT do it now. I will also NEVER change ATF in a customer's vehicle if it is "dark", or smells burned, if they insist, I get them to sign a waiver. If it's borderline, I tell them so.

Yes, you can, and should disconnect the battery for 15 min or so after an ATF change to reset the "KAM/Adaptive Strategies". This gets more importatn with increasing mileage. At 20K I'd not bother, at 30K I'd think seriously about it, at 40K I would do it without hesitation, at 50K your foolish not to (If you know you should).

[searcherrr]

1. Well, after a full week of the van sitting at the dealership they had not done a Damn thing to it except allegedly check the fluid levels and inspect where they thought the leak could be coming from. I had told them to fix the Engine Oil Pan gasket leak, but they didn't even do that as I was pending on what to do on the Tranny leak.
2. Finally last night I called and spoke with a guy there that just so happens to have gone to high school with me and he said he'd give me my van back "no charge" cause he agreed that it was rediculous for it to be there that long with nothing done on it.
So, as I took it today of course its still leaking but its not bad enough not to drive it. I have not noticed any erratic shifting, but I still notice the smell of burning tranny oil. I checked the Tranny oil level again (and I do know how; while running etc..) and again I still believe the Tranny fluid is at least one quart OVERFILLED just as I believe the Engine oil is about 3/4 of a quart OVERFILLED (yes I know to check this while the vehicle is OFF). Both sticks are OVER the two perforated dots in the stick: The tranny one over by about the same distance between the two dots and the engine oil one looks to be 3/4 the distance of the two dots on its stick OVER the 2nd dot. This indicates to me that both levels are overfilled and the last people to fill both was this same Ford Dealership. Wouldn't overage on such an old engine/tranny cause extra pressure, thus increase if not certainly CAUSE leakage from pressure build-up through old gaskets ? Does it sound like I'm calculating the overage of fluids in both tranny/engine correctly?
3. Also, now that I have the van back I'm going to take it to my trusted mechanic shop and just forget the Ford is responsible and maybe try to pursue retribution in some form after my other mechanic fixes it and tells me that they screwed it up. NOW that I have it back and the ATF change was just a few weeks ago, should I disconnect the batter for 15 minutes to reset the "learning computer" stuff? or at this point would it matter?
I'm going to assume that the lame brains at the Ford Dealership DID NOT disconnect the battery when they did the change.
4. Is it possible that if I reset the computer and drain the oils to the proper levels that the leakage will cease? I figure the answer is "NO", but since I've only driven it 4 times since the ATF change was done I'm just striving for hope here that I won't finally have to get a new ATX.

Again, ModMech - I highly appreciate your feedback and the length at which you've gone to give me great informative answers, especially talking to the Ford guy.

I'll be waiting for your response again. My trusted technicians open there shop Monday and I'm kinda waiting to hear from you before I do anything else. LOL

[ModMech]

The dealership neither cares, nor knows they should clear the KAM/Adaptive in the EEC when they perform a ATF change, because it is supposed to be done every 30,000 miles, at which it really is not critical. Also, if they don't do it on a higher mileage vehicle, there is a good chance they will get more (trans) work out of you soon, so they "win" either way.

Yes, a "significantly" overfilled ANYTHING will leak even if it is properly sealed normally. But 1/2 qt of enigne oil on a 3.8L is NOT "significantly overfilled", especially if checked HOT. Now, for a trans, even 1 PINT overfilled with a fluid temp of 60*F-120*F, IS OVERFILLED, but not at 180*F (full operating temp). So, I always check ATF level with the vehicle "warmed up", but not hot. By warmed up, I mean driven 1-2 BLOCKS, and by hot I mean driven 2 MILES or more in warm weather.

It is perfectly OK for the ATF to be WITHIN the "XXXXX" area running and cold (Room temp <warm>), even if it's higher than that at operating temp.