how do i feed my beast torque??

[96LSIntegraRocket]

thought about ls vtec conversion then h22a but a voice from the sky said torque is the answer i want to drop like $4000 into my ls come late spring (may) so do i have any suggestions

[90CRXZCSi]

LS/VTEC conversion would be the best way to go.

[PiNoY GsR RaCeR]

LS/Vtec is nice but a turbo is much sweeter! Easier said than done though...

[neouser]

Boost. Forced induction, that is. Pick your poison...

1) Turbocharger
2) Supercharger
3) Nitrous

Average of a properly set up turbo or supercharger starts at about $5000. (Operative word is "properly". For long term reliability and making the maximum power with whatever amount of boost you determine you want to use. A mickey mouse setup with questionable power/reliability can be had for much less.) Average for a proper nitrous set up can be had for about $1000 for up to 125-shot. Stock block should be fine for up to 350-400 hp. Anticipate a lot of tuning with the air/fuel mixture and ignition timing. Your efforts will be well rewarded in the end...

[Racerboy]

I would suggest looking at superchargers. Check out Jackson Racing Superchargers for example. If a torque boost is what you want, supercharging fits the bill. You get a boost in torque without the lag of turbos and without the finicky cool down issues. Pretty reliable and about your price range(A little more with installation). IMHO.

Good luck and have fun building up your ride man!

[Hanguk87]

I think the JRSC is a waste of money for that much power. Here is the dyno from there site on the LS. http://www.jacksonracing.com/pages/d...ags_ls_rs.html I think you should just get a Si head and put that shit on that. I think that gets about equal power as the JRSC but for 1/3 less money.

[neouser]

Originally posted by Hanguk87
I think the JRSC is a waste of money for that much power. Here is the dyno from there site on the LS. http://www.jacksonracing.com/pages/d...ags_ls_rs.html I think you should just get a Si head and put that shit on that. I think that gets about equal power as the JRSC but for 1/3 less money.

He wants to add torque. Without boost, that's not going to happen. An LS/VTEC conversion is a waste of money in my opinion. Go look at those dyno charts again and compare them thoroughly with an LS/VTEC. (Real dyno charts, no speculation please.) Make sure both dyno charts are measured at the wheel, with the same amount of correction. You'll find that the LS/VTEC not only makes less hp at the wheel, but it also makes nowhere near the torque of the boosted motor. You also need to look at the overall powerband of the motor, not just peak power. It's nice to have massive peak numbers, but what are you going to do until then? And what good do peak numbers do for you if that's where you shift at? The JRSC produces roughly 100 lbs of torque at the wheel at 2000 rpm. How much does the LS/VTEC put out at 2000 rpm?

I can safely argue this point because I have experience with both the LS/VTEC and the JRSC'd LS. The LS/VTEC makes nowhere near the power of a boosted motor. In fact, for about half the price of LS/VTEC, you can drop in a 75-shot dry nitrous kit and get some real power gains. I'm a fan of all boost, and nitrous is the cheapest of all of them. You just can't beat the value of a FI car. As someone on this board said...

"Horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races..."

[Hanguk87]

Originally posted by neouser


He wants to add torque. Without boost, that's not going to happen. An LS/VTEC conversion is a waste of money in my opinion. Go look at those dyno charts again and compare them thoroughly with an LS/VTEC. (Real dyno charts, no speculation please.) Make sure both dyno charts are measured at the wheel, with the same amount of correction. You'll find that the LS/VTEC not only makes less hp at the wheel, but it also makes nowhere near the torque of the boosted motor. You also need to look at the overall powerband of the motor, not just peak power. It's nice to have massive peak numbers, but what are you going to do until then? And what good do peak numbers do for you if that's where you shift at? The JRSC produces roughly 100 lbs of torque at the wheel at 2000 rpm. How much does the LS/VTEC put out at 2000 rpm?

I can safely argue this point because I have experience with both the LS/VTEC and the JRSC'd LS. The LS/VTEC makes nowhere near the power of a boosted motor. In fact, for about half the price of LS/VTEC, you can drop in a 75-shot dry nitrous kit and get some real power gains. I'm a fan of all boost, and nitrous is the cheapest of all of them. You just can't beat the value of a FI car. As someone on this board said...

"Horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races..."

Are you sure torque wins races? Because most of the time when my bro with Civic HB with ITR engine swap races vs say a Mustang GT, he will loose badly in 1st gear, but by 2nd gear, he is catching up fast and 3rd, he will pass the GT slowly. So I think HORSEPOWER wins the races for my brother atleast because all his horsepower is in at VTEC range.

[neouser]

Originally posted by Hanguk87


Are you sure torque wins races? Because most of the time when my bro with Civic HB with ITR engine swap races vs say a Mustang GT, he will loose badly in 1st gear, but by 2nd gear, he is catching up fast and 3rd, he will pass the GT slowly. So I think HORSEPOWER wins the races for my brother atleast because all his horsepower is in at VTEC range.

I fail to be impressed. Taking Honda's most powerful sub-2.0 litre motor, with a 5-speed Honda tranny that has gearing second only to the B16A2, and dropping it into one of the lightest bodies that Honda produces in order to outrun a 14.7 second (Car and Driver March 2002) 3201 lbs. chassis car (In stock trim) isn't really something to compare against. Let's compare apples to apples...

http://www.kugelkomponents.com/focus.html

Fact of the matter is, if you're losing in 1st gear and need to get to third to catch up (My definition of passing slowly. That means you've finally caught up and the gearing is allowing you to crawl ahead in slow motion.), you're not really winning. For the sake of arguement, if you take a typical stoplight confrontation, by the time that your bro catches up to the GT, the race is over. So yes, I'm sure torque wins races. (Of course, good gearing and power/weight ratio doesn't hurt either.)

That's before I even get to the LS/VTEC. One of the advantages of that ITR motor is that it's playing with lightweight pistons and rods that spin up quickly compared to that of the B18B1 and the B18C1. Secondly, you're talking about a motor with almost 1500 more top end revs than the B18B1. A head swap doesn't change the R/S ratio to allow for higher revs than Honda intended. Finally, in the case of an ITR, you're talking about gearing that's shorter than the B18B1/B18C1 with an LSD to boot. Combine all those disadvantages in the body of an Integra (not a hatchback), and you've got a very unimpressive car.

Fact of the matter is, if you look at any/all the really fast drag cars, you're looking at cars with either plenty of displacement or boost. There's very few naturally aspirated small displacement motor front wheel drive cars that can consistently outrun the boosted cars. That's just how it is. I'm not knocking Hondas or the wonderful benefits of VTEC, I'm just stating that if it's torque he's looking for, an LS/VTEC won't do the job. Personally, I would rather do a full motor swap with a B18C1 and get the full benefits of Honda engineering than mixing and matching a B18B block with a B16A2 head. But I digress. My point is merely that there's no better value than boosting a car, whether it be with the JRSC, or with more economical means such as nitrous, or with the ever versatile turbocharger. My opinion on it...

[Hanguk87]

Originally posted by neouser


I fail to be impressed. Taking Honda's most powerful sub-2.0 litre motor, with a 5-speed Honda tranny that has gearing second only to the B16A2, and dropping it into one of the lightest bodies that Honda produces in order to outrun a 14.7 second (Car and Driver March 2002) 3201 lbs. chassis car (In stock trim) isn't really something to compare against. Let's compare apples to apples...

http://www.kugelkomponents.com/focus.html

Fact of the matter is, if you're losing in 1st gear and need to get to third to catch up (My definition of passing slowly. That means you've finally caught up and the gearing is allowing you to crawl ahead in slow motion.), you're not really winning. For the sake of arguement, if you take a typical stoplight confrontation, by the time that your bro catches up to the GT, the race is over. So yes, I'm sure torque wins races. (Of course, good gearing and power/weight ratio doesn't hurt either.)

That's before I even get to the LS/VTEC. One of the advantages of that ITR motor is that it's playing with lightweight pistons and rods that spin up quickly compared to that of the B18B1 and the B18C1. Secondly, you're talking about a motor with almost 1500 more top end revs than the B18B1. A head swap doesn't change the R/S ratio to allow for higher revs than Honda intended. Finally, in the case of an ITR, you're talking about gearing that's shorter than the B18B1/B18C1 with an LSD to boot. Combine all those disadvantages in the body of an Integra (not a hatchback), and you've got a very unimpressive car.

Fact of the matter is, if you look at any/all the really fast drag cars, you're looking at cars with either plenty of displacement or boost. There's very few naturally aspirated small displacement motor front wheel drive cars that can consistently outrun the boosted cars. That's just how it is. I'm not knocking Hondas or the wonderful benefits of VTEC, I'm just stating that if it's torque he's looking for, an LS/VTEC won't do the job. Personally, I would rather do a full motor swap with a B18C1 and get the full benefits of Honda engineering than mixing and matching a B18B block with a B16A2 head. But I digress. My point is merely that there's no better value than boosting a car, whether it be with the JRSC, or with more economical means such as nitrous, or with the ever versatile turbocharger. My opinion on it...

]

You said the Mustang GT runs 14.7 in 1/4mile? I'm talking about the NEW 260 horsepower ones that run low 14's to 14 flat. Also, they have 302 lbs. of torque.

[neouser]

Originally posted by Hanguk87

]

You said the Mustang GT runs 14.7 in 1/4mile? I'm talking about the NEW 260 horsepower ones that run low 14's to 14 flat. Also, they have 302 lbs. of torque.

Yes I was talking about that Mustang, Car and Driver March 2002 issue page 110 (Tested 05/01, and as everyone knows, Car and Driver has some of the fastest drivers out there.), unless there's an even newer Mustang than that. 14.7 standing quarter mile, 6.0 seconds 0-60. By the way....

2000 Mustang GT

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/for...tml?id=lin0066

2001 Mustang GT

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2001/for...tml?id=lin0066

2002 Mustang GT

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2002/ford...tml?id=lin0018

Note that all three models have identical stats, and I don't think that they would test the 1999 model on May of 2001. The ones that run low 14's to 14 flat probably aren't stock and have an exhaust or something. You know, the kind of mod that makes an easy 30 hp on a large motor, but makes about 3 hp on a 1.8 litre. Either way, all things considered, you're talking about a hatchback with a B18C5 swap in there that can catch up to a 14.7 second car by third gear. Unimpressive. And no matter how you cut it, your "bro's" hatchback still just doesn't support that a LS/VTEC motor makes any real substantial power. (Unless you're going to argue that an LS/VTEC hybrid makes more "power" than a B18C5, in a body that's 400 lbs. heavier, no less, with 1500 less useable rpm, lousier gearing, nice heavy rods and pistons to hinder spinup, no LSD, and a flywheel that's a good 7 lbs. heavier.) Note that almost all the sub-2.0 litre Hondas that run less than 12 seconds on pump gas are boosted. Fact of the matter is, a JRSC'd LS will easily outrun an LS/VTEC. If you want power in a Honda, boost is the way to go. All motor buildups are expensive and the price vs. performance comparison is just not satisfying. Period.

[integrachick]

Neouser you are the first person that i have seen that knows what they're talking about. My boyfriend has a 94 stang vert that runs 412 hp at the wheels with out juice. Mustang will be my next purchase he added
250 hp for less than 2500 bucks.

[Marasmus]

Absolutely time for forced induction. You have your choice of poisons:
Supercharger, where the low-end is great but the top-end isn't the most impressive....
Turbo, where the low-end is weak but the top-end is much better...
Nitrous, where you can't shoot it in either low-end or first gear, so it probably won't do you much good here.

Superchargers have a singular trade-off: power versus reliability. You can do a JRSC at 6 psi boost and get moderate gains until the end of time. You can crank it up to 8psi boost and be a little more careful about maintenance, but squeeze another 20 hp from it. Or you can go up to like 10psi and have great power but seriously risk strain on the rods and pistons.

Turbochargers have (mostly) a singular trade-off: optimal high-end or optimal-midrange performance. One gives you some level of turbo lag at the beginning but a good high-band run (which would do fine for 3000+rpm starts with 17" wheels). The other gives you useable power in the low-end and a smoother powerband, with probably the same top-end as the 6psi JRSC. Of course, if you go with some crazy super-high- boost turbo, reliability will go out the window... so keep it sane

Trying to get more torque out of a normally-aspirated engine is not for the casual hobbyist high (11.5:1) compression pistons, lighter rods, lightened and rebalanced crank, and a lighter flywheel are just the starting points. Then come bigger intake and exhaust manifolds, port-matching on the head, bigger injectors, new fuel pump and higher-flow fuel filter, ECU remapping, more powerful ignition system... and for all that work and money, the torque increases probably won't be as high as in forced induction. But NA builds definitely have their advantages. a NA car doing 250whp will almost always beat the same car using FI to get to 250whp

[electric lime teg]

Originally Posted by Marasmus

Absolutely time for forced induction. You have your choice of poisons:
Supercharger, where the low-end is great but the top-end isn't the most impressive....
Turbo, where the low-end is weak but the top-end is much better...
Nitrous, where you can't shoot it in either low-end or first gear, so it probably won't do you much good here.

Superchargers have a singular trade-off: power versus reliability. You can do a JRSC at 6 psi boost and get moderate gains until the end of time. You can crank it up to 8psi boost and be a little more careful about maintenance, but squeeze another 20 hp from it. Or you can go up to like 10psi and have great power but seriously risk strain on the rods and pistons.

Turbochargers have (mostly) a singular trade-off: optimal high-end or optimal-midrange performance. One gives you some level of turbo lag at the beginning but a good high-band run (which would do fine for 3000+rpm starts with 17" wheels). The other gives you useable power in the low-end and a smoother powerband, with probably the same top-end as the 6psi JRSC. Of course, if you go with some crazy super-high- boost turbo, reliability will go out the window... so keep it sane

Trying to get more torque out of a normally-aspirated engine is not for the casual hobbyist high (11.5:1) compression pistons, lighter rods, lightened and rebalanced crank, and a lighter flywheel are just the starting points. Then come bigger intake and exhaust manifolds, port-matching on the head, bigger injectors, new fuel pump and higher-flow fuel filter, ECU remapping, more powerful ignition system... and for all that work and money, the torque increases probably won't be as high as in forced induction. But NA builds definitely have their advantages. a NA car doing 250whp will almost always beat the same car using FI to get to 250whp

So does the costs of a N/A integra AT 250WHP equal to the costs of a FI integra at 250whp.......and u would pretty much suggest a JRSC over a LS/VTEC?

[whtteg]

Let's take a moment to read the stickies at the top of the forum page please. This thred is close to 3 yrs old. Please don't bring up old dead threads.
Thank you
Tim
AF moderator