"Saving" second geaR?

[PunkAlex]

I was chattin wiht my pops today, and we got into a conversation about transmissions...well when we used to have the prelude, i noticed that occationally he'd shift strait from 1st to 3rd. He just told me it was an old habit and left it at that. WEll today we were talkin and he was telling me about how back in his day when he had his olds 4-4-2 and all his buddies had their chevy's and fords and mopars that they would always go strait from 1st to 3rd and they would "save" second strictly for racing, so that the only abuse 2nd gear got was the occational WOT clutchless powershift. It was an interesting idea. Now my question is do any of you guys do that with your cars? Woudl it really work wiht transaxle fwd cars with modern syncros?

[Autocratic_1st_Gen]

I still use 2nd, but I double-clutch every downshift, that saves syncros alot.

[1PhatCX]

Originally Posted by Autocratic_1st_Gen

I still use 2nd, but I double-clutch every downshift, that saves syncros alot.

i still havent gotten the double clutch right i'm an idiot with that, i thought u double clutch up shifting? or is my buddy an idiot too?
and also, tell me how u double clutch when downshifting to see if i'm doing it right or not lol

[90civicrider]

You can easily do that in a muscel car because they are pusshing like 350+ HP. If you do that in our little hondas they will sputter, and dance around.

[90civicrider]

Originally Posted by 1PhatCX

i still havent gotten the double clutch right i'm an idiot with that, i thought u double clutch up shifting? or is my buddy an idiot too?
and also, tell me how u double clutch when downshifting to see if i'm doing it right or not lol

I think it's called a " heal toe" when you do it upshifting.

[Autocratic_1st_Gen]

nonono

heel toe is double clutching while braking

you can not double clutch upshift, nor is there any point

when double clutching you are matching the gear speeds, so that the syncro's dont have to. old cars didn't have syncro's so you HAD to double clutch.

to do it:
push in clutch an place in nuetral
let off clutch
rev engine to correct engine speed
push in clutch and put in gear
let off clutch

Also makes downshifting smoother feeling, and lets you downshift while cornering hard w/o upsetting the balance.

-Dustin

[turtlecrxsi]

oh yes you can double clutch upshifting... try it and maybe your neck will thank you. How the hell else could I explain being able to put a couple thousand miles on a tranny with exploded bearings and oil all over the clutch? . When double clutching while upshifting, you rev up, clutch fast! shift (and while midshifting clutch again... that is the double clutch)... it may take some getting used to but you'll catch better. Also, I've downshifted for years, and basically heel/toe works when drifting. Yes, you can drift a FWD... it's what happens when you downshift, corner and you slide. Hint: it's much easier on bald sport tires with rims that weigh 9lbs... hahahahaha... Enjoy.

[PunkAlex]

Originally Posted by 90civicrider

You can easily do that in a muscel car because they are pusshing like 350+ HP. If you do that in our little hondas they will sputter, and dance around.

My dad said even in his 400hp 442 the car woudl studder and jerk but itd still be a faster shift than using the clutch...plus there wasnt a chance of missing second...I dunno

[civic_boy91]

Q: What is double clutching?
A: You just watched "The Fast and the Furious" didn't you?

Real answer:

Double clutching is a downshifting technique that promotes smoother transitions and lower transmission wear. It is useful for road racing, prolonging transmission life, and giving you an overall smoother ride.

In normal driving, with modern cars- you don't need to double clutch... ever. When you shift, these neat little devices called "synchronizers" or "synchromesh" (or whatever other name you want to give them) in your transmission help your shifting by matching the rotational speeds between meshing parts. Why do you need to match the speeds between transmission parts when you shift? Simple- they won't go together unless they're all traveling the exact same speed. Your synchros take care of this, so you don't have to worry about matching revs much in normal driving.

So the question now is... why the heck do you need to double clutch? It's useful in racing, it's required for non-synchro transmissions, and it's just a damn cool racing skill to master. Think of your transmission as being separated into two functional halves. One half is connected to your engine, and the other half is connected to your drive axles/wheels. The split between the two halves is right at your gears.

Let's say you're driving down the street in 5th gear. Assume that your gearing is 1:1 all the way though, just for simplicity's sake. Your engine is turning 3000rpm, and so are all the parts in your transmission. You want to downshift to get higher up in your powerband to pass someone, so you mash the clutch pedal, shift to 4th gear, then lift off the clutch pedal. If your 4th gear ratio is twice what your 5th is, your engine is now spinning at 6000rpm (along with the "engine half" of the transmission) while the "driveshaft half" of your transmission is still spinning at 3000rpm. Your car is still moving at the same speed, but you're higher up in your engine's powerband. Now you have more power to pass the person in front of you.

What normally happens when you downshift and don't match revs? You feel the car lurch some while the transmission forces the engine to a higher rev level. The synchros grip against each other to match the gear speeds, the gears mesh, and when your clutch grips- it pushes the engine higher... and you feel the rough transition. To smooth this out, you can raise the rev level of your engine and the "engine half" of the transmission so the synchros have less work to do, and so your transmission isn't pushing the engine around.

How do I double clutch? I never thought you'd ask.

1. Push clutch pedal down
2. Shift to neutral
3. Lift clutch pedal up
4. "Blip" throttle to raise engine speed, "engine half" transmission speed
5. Push clutch pedal down
6. Shift into lower gear
7. Lift clutch pedal up

That's it.

Double clutching does NOT help during drag racing. You do NOT downshift while drag racing- if you do, you just lost the race. Don't listen to that Fast and Furious crap!

i dont rember where i got this ... so dont ask me ... and sorry for the long post.

[turtlecrxsi]

Okay, Rob, is pretty much right. I still call downshifting, downshifting and have done it more than I could count. It's probably why my brakes have lasted so long... basically, I don't use them. Now, I have an Exedy racing clutch and light ACT flywheel and downshifting is really unnecessary since I have new brakes. My tires are shot and I downshift to second when drifting a corner. Practice makes perfect. I do downshift to fourth often not only because of habit, but because when my rpms drop below 3k the car is useless in 5th gear. And my CRX is not so slow anymore that I have to downshift to pass. The other day, I was cruising at around 55 or so and some SUV was in front of me and I wanted to open up my car. Well, I didn't have to downshift but I went to 3rd and shifted to 4th at 6k rpms and was doing over 80mph. I find myself slowing down often cuz I now overshoot the speed I'm trying to achieve when going to high rpms. I had the same problem in my 944 (but that was a 944). Anyway, you don't need to upshift double clutch if your tranny works great. It just helps cruising a little smoother. Sorry my

[sastanley]

I double-clutch when I upshift from 2nd to 3rd, cuz my 3rd gear synchros are pretty much shot and that is better than grinding.

As noted above however, most double-clutching is useful when rev-matching during a downshift so you don't throw your children and wife into the windshield slowing down, and also cuz the clutch has to take the load when you shift from 3k to 4.5K RPM after the engine has had a chance to drop to 1k (idle speed) when you push the clutch in..so if you double clutch and rev-match everything during that transition is much smoother..also as noted above.

Be friendly to your passengers, engine & tranny. They'll thank you later when your family hauler is a 91 Civic 4-Door that has 223K miles on it and is still the one they all want to drive cuz you taught them proper driving techniques and you took care of it

[turtlecrxsi]

yep, iI'm learning that with a new clutch, gotta "blip" the clutch first before slamming it in second even before a drift. I'm sure my wife wouldn't appreciate it very much if she got whiplash because of it. It just seems like a waste of rpms doing all that... that's where heel/toe comes into play I guess. It's a bit scary on bald ass tires though. Every time I want to buy new rims or just replace my tires a bill comes out of nowhere.

[BullShifter]

Double clutch can be done on both up & down shifts. Heel-toe has nothing to do with double clutch unless your doing them together.

The reason double clutch shifting is needed is because the transmission has NO sychro's. Unless you've swapped out your tranny for a full race unit or driving a vehicle prior to 1960 then double clutch is NOT needed. Double clutching a synchro trans will only save the sunchro's, no real gain. I personally shift without the clutch most of the time, no damage will occur if done correctly. Remeber downshifting is not a brake.

Heel-toe refers to the drivers right foot controlling the gas & brake together. Heel on gas, toe on brake. I find it nearly impossible to "heel-toe" most modern cars, it's more of a side-side foot. Big toe on brake & right edge of foot on gas.

Next time road racing is on SPEED watch for in-car shots & count the number of times clutch is pressed. You will rarely see it.....

http://www.driftsession.com/technique.htm

Back to the 1st to 3rd shift. I do it a lot because of the Si gearing. Losts of times i use top row only 1-3-5 or sometimes 2-4-5.

[turtlecrxsi]

yep, it's all done together... and yes, heel/toe is more of a side to side thing. Instead of using my big toe to accelerate, I move my foot up further, cover the brake with my big toe and blah blah... It takes some getting used to though. Driving a modified car is a lot different than stock. I know about clutchless driving but when you have 181k miles on your transmission and just spent 300 bucks for new bearings and 500 for new clutch and flywheel you kind of want to take it easy... heehee

[BullShifter]

Ouch, lol . . .you could have gotten a rebuilt trans for $300-400. Rebuilding a trans with 181K is a waste of time, seeing that 1 gear set cost about $200 + bearings and whatever else is needed.