Handling Contradiction

[daveward]

This is my first post here. Thanks for checking in.

My issue deals with a contradiction that I can't seem to get past. This is all in my quest to improve the handling of my '68. I started my car lust with an old 1957 Porsche. Besides the size difference the other key difference between the Porsche and the ElCamino is that one has a significant front and one has a significant rear weight bias. For the Porsche this means you add a front sway bar to increase understeer from its originally exaggerated oversteer condition. For the El Camino, I'd expect just the opposite solution; its original tendency is to understeer. I'd put on increasing larger rear sway bars until the handling is neutralized.

But the factory and many aftermarket companies add FRONT bars or even larger front bars which makes the understeer situation worse, so they finally add that rear bar. Given my experience with the Porsches and my knowledge of how well they can handle, it seems like the most logical path should be to remove my stock front sway bar and keep adding rear bars of increasing size til I get a fairly neutral car. Why is everyone else so wrong??? Just joking.

What am I missing? I realize full well the Chevrolet engineers played it safe by having an understeering car for the masses, but even in the aftermarket the first handling improvement marketed to us is a larger front bar. Any comments would be welcome. Thanks. Dave

[gexgexgexgex]

hey sounds like u have a really nice car(every el camino is nice)
have u put a rear and a front sway bar on ur car a drove it around to see if it has the handleing u want

also u might want to change ur shocks front and back

[a1supersport]

I have tried removing the front sway bar on my ElCamino, and man was that scary!! It actually felt like the car was going to roll over while I made a 180 degree turn, that covered 4 lanes. What I think may be complimenting the understeer on an ElCamino is the high center of gravity, excessive front weight bias, and the flexing of the front suspension. The larger front sway bar is only one piece of the puzzle. I guess it would be like taking a mule, and trying to turn it into a thoroughbred race horse. No matter how much you put into that mule, it's still a mule...like turning an ElCamino into a Porsche...nuh-uh, won't happen. I remember one of the magazines...either Car Craft or Hot Rod...tried to turn a 71-72 Malibu into a corner-burner. They made big improvements with their effort, but the same problems, like understeer, still existed...still a mule . But if you do try it, let us know what you find out, Good Luck.

[daveward]

Originally Posted by a1supersport

was that scary!! It actually felt like the car was going to roll over while I made a 180 degree turn, that covered 4 lanes.

I certainly wouldn't want you to have to re-live that moment again! But... for the record.. if you went half-way around in an instant it sounds like the car was a complete oversteerer, just like the Porsche is with (or without) it's front swaybar. Interesting...I think I'll skip this step, since you've already done the experiment. Thanks.

I think your focus on the center of gravity is right on in this case. I'll have to give this some more thought.

My wife says I'm always coming up with these crazy ideas to make my cars do things they weren't designed for.

By the way, just to keep my imagination active...I was wondering if you'd had a chance to see the recent articles in a couple car magazines about the center drive (truck axle) set-up by Hotrods to Hell. I'm intrigued by the concept (oh what a surprise that is!)...but I'm surprised by the g-force comparisons and slalom times. For all the hype, and the significant cost, the improvement was underwhelming. I think I'll go check it out...I'm sure I can make it better.

Thanks again for your input...Dave

[a1supersport]

Actually the U-turn I made was voluntary, but it wasn't pleasant . This wouldn't happen to be the same ElCamino that you're using as a replacement for your 1-ton pickup is it? Hmmm...handle like a Porsche, and carry a ton of stuff at the same time...what a concept!!! Imagine...pulling 2 g's doing donuts at 70 mph...with a ton of bricks on board...WOW!!! Just kidding . I have yet to see or hear anything about a center drive set-up. What magazines did the story? Hope I was able to help with your "Porschemino".

[daveward]

Originally Posted by a1supersport

I have yet to see or hear anything about a center drive set-up. What magazines did the story?

You'd be perfect to read these articles and react objectively to them. I've been searching for my son's magazines, and here's the only article, of the three I found so far. It's in the Apr 2004 issue of SUPER CHEVY, pg. 77. The other magazines my son gets (and I read first) are Chevy High Performance, Car Craft and Hot Rod. In the last 6 months two of these three magazines also did similiar articles. They all are basically sales promotions for Hell On Wheels, rather than being real Road Tests, but the concept really excites me.

I think up til now there were two kinds of El Camino people, the-leave-the-suspension-stock-'cause-it-was-good-enough-when-it-was-new people and the Global West/Hotchkis people. My son is a Hotchkis guy. He's got a 68 Chevelle with Hotchkis springs, sway bars and rear control arms. It does handle very well. Now there will be a third group, the Hell On Wheels/center drive/truck arm people. If I could one-up my son by becoming a truck arm guy I would. The claim is (and I'm sure this is a coincidence that all three articles used the same terminology) that the new set-up rides like a cadillac, but handles like a slot car. WOW! That's what I want my PORSCHEMINO to be one day.

When I find my son's stash of magazines I'll let you know exactly where the other articles are. I'd be interested in your feedback. Dave