The scam play of western media on the israeli-palestinean conflict

[MR2-AW11]

It's a well written article and identifies alot of issues:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...6684DF85F7.htm

Read it wholly not just skimping!

[YogsVR4]

Israel is better at manipulating the media. Palestinians are better at blowing up themselves and anyone near them. Nothing new.

[Cbass]

Israel doesn't manipulate the US media, they practically dictate to it. I read several international papers on the internet, and I find that the US is the only country that tries to glorify and validate the actions of the IDF(who have been used for nothing but invading and brutalizing)...

The very fact that they tried to do a golden show on Arial Sharon, who is a complete monster, that sickened me. That was on CNN, btw.

[MR2-AW11]

Cbass thank God there are some sane moral men who are seeking the truth out

[asterox]

Ugh so tiring. Palestinians can go anywhere in the arab world but they must live in Israel.

[syr74]

My degree at the end of this semester will be in Business and economics. I very nearly changed my degree to Islamic Studies and could have earned a minor in that area long ago had I chosen to declare. Another semester, two at most, and I could have a degree in Islamic studies.

I have studied virtually every aspect of Islamic law, culture, history, and society under some of the very best Islamic scholars in America. (No kidding) Most of these Professors were originally from an Islamic nation, (as close as you get today at least) and every one of them is a practicing Muslim. I could mention two Professor's names (which I will not) that you could enter into your search engine and get hits out the wazoo. Worldwide. I also consider many of these folks very good personal friends.

Does this make me an expert? No. Does it make me more qualified than the average bear? Hell yes. I say all of that to qualify the rest of this post.

Israel has not always handled things in the best way possible over the last fifty plus years. But, they have handled them a damn site better than the Palestinians or the arab world in general.

Israel has lived with the mortal threat of invasion every day that they have existed since their modern day repatriation. Several times the Arabs tried to destroy them with no mercy shown and no quarter offered under any circumstances.

Israel triumphed every time against overwheming odds. Since that time Israel has gained the "bomb" and has essentially enjoyed a peace assured by their foes imminent destruction in case of invasion. Take the bomb away from Israel tomorrow, and the shit starts flying again folks.

I feel some sympathy toward the Palestinians. But frankly, to give up that tiny portion of land was very little compenstation considering that the arab powers that be were largely accused of supporting the NAZI's during WWII. Very few people remember this, but a major reason the US secretly pushed the pushed for the new Israel within the UN was to punish the arab nations for their "disloyalty" to the US and the west. BTW, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan all claimed a portion of the area that the UK controlled and ended up becoming Israel. Nobody had any intention of creating "Palestine"

It is often difficult for me to feel sorry for the Palestians, because they were offered the best deal they are ever going to get at Camp David under Clinton and Arafat balked at it. I said Clinton was a fool before the talks, and he proved my point during them.

Why you ask? He may have been the only person who could have convinced Israel to offer those consolations to the Palestinians, and he accomplished a great feat in doing so. But, he was a flat out sucker for believing that a peaceful reconciliation, and peaceful coexistance is what the PLO ever wanted to begin with. I cannot believe anyone ever bought into that. And, if they still believe it after the Camp David disaster they are as big a fool as Clinton.

The Palestinians and the majority of the arab world want Israel gone...period. Peaceful coexistence was never on the menu, and they only say so in public venues. Sitting with my Professors, and several Palestinians, not to mention arabs, and muslims of every nationality.......the vast majority of whom are very moderate, they all want Israel gone. What they say in a small group is very different from what gets said in the public arena.

You tell me. If you lived every day with the threat of car bombings, suicide bombings, and your history was full of nothing but hatred, deception, and violence from your neighbors. If Iran and other nations made comments like "The day we have a nuclear weapon it will detonate over Tel Aviv". If every day threatened to be a September 11th.....How would America respond? I think we all know the answer to that one. And she'd be right.

[Cbass]

A good post, but I object to a few of your statements.

Originally Posted by syr74

Does this make me an expert? No. Does it make me more qualified than the average bear? Hell yes. I say all of that to qualify the rest of this post.

You have studied Islam, but have you studied the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular? Have you studied Zionism, as well?

Originally Posted by syr74

Israel has not always handled things in the best way possible over the last fifty plus years. But, they have handled them a damn site better than the Palestinians or the arab world in general.

The Palestinians in occupied territory handle their situation in one of three ways. Either they accept the reign of Israel imposed upon them, they try to leave the country, or they try to do something to fight back. Terrorism is the last resort of an oppressed people.

Originally Posted by syr74

Israel has lived with the mortal threat of invasion every day that they have existed since their modern day repatriation. Several times the Arabs tried to destroy them with no mercy shown and no quarter offered under any circumstances.

Israel triumphed every time against overwheming odds. Since that time Israel has gained the "bomb" and has essentially enjoyed a peace assured by their foes imminent destruction in case of invasion. Take the bomb away from Israel tomorrow, and the shit starts flying again folks.

Israel has been an enemy of the arab nations since it's conception. The fact that a large chunk of Palestine was given to the zionists by the British will never be forgotten.

Not content with this, and wishing to create the "greater Israel", they invaded their neighbours, after provoking a conflict, and seized key territories that the zionists believed to be part of the "greater Israel", such as the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. They did this because they knew they could, because they knew that the US would support them, and because they knew that no one had the power to stop them.

Originally Posted by syr74

I feel some sympathy toward the Palestinians. But frankly, to give up that tiny portion of land was very little compenstation considering that the arab powers that be were largely accused of supporting the NAZI's during WWII. Very few people remember this, but a major reason the US secretly pushed the pushed for the new Israel within the UN was to punish the arab nations for their "disloyalty" to the US and the west. BTW, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan all claimed a portion of the area that the UK controlled and ended up becoming Israel. Nobody had any intention of creating "Palestine"

If you remember your history, the arabs fought the Turks for the British in WW1, with the promise of a free Palestine. After the war, surpise surprise, the British were still there, and were still running the place like a colony. In fact, during WW2 the Arab nations were largely British and French "protectorates"(colonies), so punishing them for disloyalty doesn't hold much water with me. Even if they did support Germany, they had every right to, many other nations did as well, and those other nations were completely fucked over by the British.

Support for Israel in the US came from a very powerful zionist lobby, which is still at work to this day.

Originally Posted by syr74

It is often difficult for me to feel sorry for the Palestians, because they were offered the best deal they are ever going to get at Camp David under Clinton and Arafat balked at it. I said Clinton was a fool before the talks, and he proved my point during them.

Why you ask? He may have been the only person who could have convinced Israel to offer those consolations to the Palestinians, and he accomplished a great feat in doing so. But, he was a flat out sucker for believing that a peaceful reconciliation, and peaceful coexistance is what the PLO ever wanted to begin with. I cannot believe anyone ever bought into that. And, if they still believe it after the Camp David disaster they are as big a fool as Clinton.

Do you honestly think the deal Arafat was offered was in any way fair to the Arabs? No, it was simply the best they were going to get. Does this mean they should accept the deal, and validate the Israeli position in the future?

Originally Posted by syr74

The Palestinians and the majority of the arab world want Israel gone...period. Peaceful coexistence was never on the menu, and they only say so in public venues. Sitting with my Professors, and several Palestinians, not to mention arabs, and muslims of every nationality.......the vast majority of whom are very moderate, they all want Israel gone. What they say in a small group is very different from what gets said in the public arena.

You tell me. If you lived every day with the threat of car bombings, suicide bombings, and your history was full of nothing but hatred, deception, and violence from your neighbors. If Iran and other nations made comments like "The day we have a nuclear weapon it will detonate over Tel Aviv". If every day threatened to be a September 11th.....How would America respond? I think we all know the answer to that one. And she'd be right.

I can't blame them for wanting Israel gone. I want Israel gone, or at least very much changed. I am not an anti-semite, but I am most definately anti-zionist. These people are ruthless religious zealots, and willing to use any means at their disposal to achieve their goals. I put them in the same category as Osama Bin Laden and the men holding the torches in Salem.

Israel was founded on terror, and attempts to fight the symptom of their problem, the terrorist attacks, with brutality and oppression. The Israeli people elected Arial Sharon, because he is a monster, and because they know he will brutalize and murder the Palestinians. They deserve everything that is coming to them.

I can only wait and hope for the day when the US is weak enough that they can't protect Israel anymore, and we see sanctions placed on Israel by the world.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by Cbass

I can't blame them for wanting Israel gone. I want Israel gone, or at least very much changed. I am not an anti-semite, but I am most definately anti-zionist. These people are ruthless religious zealots, and willing to use any means at their disposal to achieve their goals. I put them in the same category as Osama Bin Laden and the men holding the torches in Salem.

Israel was founded on terror, and attempts to fight the symptom of their problem, the terrorist attacks, with brutality and oppression. The Israeli people elected Arial Sharon, because he is a monster, and because they know he will brutalize and murder the Palestinians. They deserve everything that is coming to them.

I can only wait and hope for the day when the US is weak enough that they can't protect Israel anymore, and we see sanctions placed on Israel by the world.

yeah, you're not anti-semetic you just think those people need to be put in their place.

Isreal was not founded on terror. That is an outright lie.

The world will never impose sanctions on Isreal because the EU, Japan and China wouldn't impose sanctions on anyone. They don't have the balls.

I can only wait for the palestinians to either wake up and realize that they are being led by mass murderers or open it up to a knock out drag out war and see who is left standing.

[syr74]

Cbass, I appreciate your position. I will also say that I think the difference between my position and yours is pretty demonstrative of the two most commonly seen "sides" to this debate.

That said, of course I have studied the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. (It is more acurately called the Israeli-Arab conflict) It is virtually impossible to study Islam in any form today and not spend a great deal of time on that issue. It would be akin to studying Business, but never studying monetary policy. They go hand in hand.

I have also spent a great deal of time studying the subject on my own. And, I have obviously had ample opportunity to hear the Arab/Palestinian/Muslim side of this debate due to my background in Islamic study.

I stand by my assertion that the arab/muslim world largely supported the NAZI regime. Revisionist historians are attempting to change this fact on paper. But, it is simply how it was.

I am well aware of where the Ottomans stood during WW1. And, I am well aware of how situations were handled in Arabia between WWI and WWII. I do not feel anyone was "cheated". Much as it is happening today, situations were handled in light of actions and attitudes taken by the arabs. And, as it is today, many factions may have been dealt with too gently in the name of diplomacy.

The Palestinians were offered a more than "fair" deal during the Camp David talks. The fact that they simply balked at the offer demonstrates that they do not now, nor did they ever, want peaceful coexistence. Israel offered up a great deal of compromise that risked Israeli security on many levels.

To not even make a counter-offer was an insult of the highest order. And that mistake by Arafat is exactly how they ended up with Sharon on the other side of the table. Israel took the hint that talking was not what the Palestinians had in mind.

If you are waiting for the day when either Israel or the US is too weak to take car of business. Well, I fear you will be waiting a very long time indeed.

[MR2-AW11]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

Isreal was not founded on terror. That is an outright lie.

Oh no?

I don't know maaaan....... those bombings of airports, buses, hospitals, hotels and massacres by israelis of too many villages.. way before israel was CREATED by the british and 'league of nations'/UN... they might ring a bell...

Good post cbass.

Syr74, you studied Islam? But you aren't muslim It's like a few guys I knew who are in US army who read PENTAGON books on Islam and claimed they had knowledge but weren't "experts".

Regardless, we went off topic haven't we I posted the article I didn't post for a "please republicans/conservatives/neo-cons/zionist supporters make another whining argument" but instead I posted the article to be read.

The things mentioned in the article.. have you like evaded them? Absolutely stunning analysis of the way the western and israeli media portrays the conflict.

December time there was 100+ palestinean civillians slaughtered by the israeli army but the western and israeli media called it time of relative peace!!

[syr74]

Huh MR2? Somehow studying Islam under people considered to be extremely competent Muslim scholars is a far cry from "reading a book". I read the article you posted a link well before you posted it. And, if you think this is a "well written" article by an authority on the subject then you know very little about the subject.

To criticize my knowledge of Islam must mean that you have a very good understanding of Islam yourself. Please, feel free to elaborate on a major Islamic topic and I will be glad to reply. Shari'a, or any other topic will do. If you however cannot elaborate, and I am pretty damned certain you cannot, then please keep your uninformed opinion top yourself in the future.

[Cbass]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

yeah, you're not anti-semetic you just think those people need to be put in their place.

Isreal was not founded on terror. That is an outright lie.

No Yogi, that's history. Go read up on David Ben-Gurion, the Haganah, and the Irgun Tz vai Leumi and Lohame Herut Israel groups...

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

The world will never impose sanctions on Isreal because the EU, Japan and China wouldn't impose sanctions on anyone. They don't have the balls.

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

I can only wait for the palestinians to either wake up and realize that they are being led by mass murderers or open it up to a knock out drag out war and see who is left standing.

They are being led by mass murderers? I'm afraid you're going to have to back that one up.

Of course, there is no need to prove that the Israelis are led by mass murderers, it's indisputable fact. Quick question, how many Palestinians have been killed by the IDF in the last 5 years?

[MR2-AW11]

Originally Posted by asterox

Ugh so tiring. Palestinians can go anywhere in the arab world but they must live in Israel.

Urgh so tiring, Israelis must live in Palestine and not anywhere else.

Guess what Israel didn't exist for a thousand years. Current day Israel is a result of british and french colonialism. That whole region has been toyed with by colonial powers.. irony it seems.. things don't change.

Israel didn't exist since Jewish leaders and corrupt priests and romans sabottaged the region and for the romans and personal 'needs'. The lands changed, and remained non-Jewish for a long time.

Jews continued to be supressed and oppressed, and in fact so did all monotheists including christians, under pagan rulers.

Jews did co-exist peacefully with Muslims under Muslim rule, up until the point of crusades where everyone besides christians was asked to die or baptise.

And as hard as it's to believe Yog yes Israel was founded on terror, AKA terrorist groups (the word I doubt even existed back in the day), Stern-gang doesn't ring a bell, many many others Of course these groups were 'banned' (AKA converted to IDF, parts of government, erased/coverd up, etc...) the moment israel was founded.

And syr, no true muslim will support Israel in what it's doing... its an oxymoron to all the beliefs. Israel is built upon lies, corruption, colonialism and continued terror. Don't people ever even QUESTION themselves why the Palestinean territories keep SHRINKING? I don't know it's the very basic things that MIGHT make people think. That article was well written because it pointed out exactly the type of things western/israeli media/journalists express/write/talk about. Whether the person is an 'authority' (what a funny word) is regardless, because certainly Palestineans themselves have no authority on their own well being and pro-zionists and pro-israeli government individuals get all the say and when criticized by their opponents are always called anti-semetic and automatically win.. ya....

The land was promised to the followers of the one God of Abraham when they believed and followed God... believers are the chosen people.. but that doesn't mean zionists have the right to say "hey we are God's chosen people lets take the land back since it was promised to us" now stop, yes promised by God at the time when they were submitted to God. Of course this last part doesn't quite apply to those that don't believe but anyways.

[syr74]

Actually MR2, you are correct that no Muslim will ever support Israel in what it is doing. At least not anyone that the average Muslim would consider a "true Muslim".

But, you neglect to mention that they wont tolerate any government other than a Shari'a based goverment in the region period. (They will however tolerate goverments based very poorly on the Shari'a) They believe that it violates the Qu'ran.

If you want an example take a look at Muslim ruled Lebanon. Lebanon is a majority Christian nation and yet it is subjected to Muslim religious rule. Why? Same reason I just mentioned above. Peaceful coexistence is not a strong suit of the current Islamic society in the region.

BTW, here is a question for you. Where is all the outrage at Christian Lebanon being dominated by a Syrian military and it's Muslim supporters within Lebanon? Where is the outrage at the deaths, torture, and oppression of innocent Christians in this nation?

I assure you, far more Lebanese Christians have died at the hands of Syrians and Muslim fighters than Palestinians have died at the hands of Israeli's in the last two decades. Forget the outrage, did you even KNOW that this was true before I mentioned it?

These people have never resorted to suicide bombs, nor have they sponsored terrorism. Their leaders have been truly democratically elected (unlike Arafat) with their Muslim opponents were allowed to vote as well (Did the Palestinians let the Israeli's vote for Arafat and his opponents?....lol) and then their legally elected oficials have been openly assasinated. But, I can understand how you would rather forward the cause of a terrorist murderer like Arafat.

[MR2-AW11]

I also forgot to add christians co-existed peacefully with Muslims until crusades arrived but anyways.

The current governments which you claim are islamic are nothing but formerly or currently US or British puppets.. they don't come close to what once was under Muhamed and the califs when the pagan rulers were overthrown. hence no co-existance, peace, etc... The kings and rulers are concerned with their own well being, not belief in God, their people, etc... but there is a hadith which says that one of the most punishable people will be unjust tyranical imams and rulers of ignorance. Saddam is a rat asshole, he is not muslim he ran a secular 'westernized' country in the middle-east which eventually collapsed for too many reasons and of course this latest invasion. In fact Sadam gave great donations to christians in america but that's off topic!

Haha when you said "BTW, here is a question for you" Irshad Manji came to mind.. is she the type of 'Muslims' you have studied with? She claims to have studied madresa and everything... but the fact remains she doesn't even know her own beliefs, not the vary basic beliefs. She is nothing but a drinking, pork eating, lesbian lol.. yes lesbian. And she claims to be a muslim and of course the western media loves her. Yes she quite supports Israel more or less haha...

Oh and for those.. would you like a westernized source to explain the history of israel?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sta...eline/1897.stm

Even though it's very general, history can not be rewritten entirely so read these pages. The wonderful irgun gang, and the likes are NOT called terrorists and the article is so passive that it's as if there's NOTHING WRONG with israelis just immigrating to palestine suddenly and taking over another people's land.. and the british aiding them and lying to the arabs they were occupying just using them against themselves (to help overthrow ottomans). This is a hundred years of terrorism against the palestineans, they have every right to do what they are doing and not doing. And it keeps getting worse! Last december was 'time of relative peace'? 100+ Palestinian civillians died!