Shed light on this strange mystery!

[bstone210]

While my wife and I were away for the holidays, our white 2003 Civic Hybrid disappeared from our San Francisco street corner. Our friendly dealership mechanic told us that it was very unlikely the car had been stolen; there was, after all, a microchip in the key! And he had never heard of a hybrid being stolen. So, we checked the local impound lot, but with no success. Two weeks later, frustrated, I checked with SF's department of traffic and lo and behold, the vehicle had gotten a ticket near the ocean, about 30 miles from our home. We drove out there and the car was parked on a quiet residential street. The gas tank was empty, there were cigarette butts in the ashtray (we dont smoke) and strangely, an Acura owner's manual, insurance info and registration were lying in the passenger's seat. Our manual was gone. And finally, in a stinging referendum on my wife's leather coat, it was sitting untouched in the back seat.

I called the Acura owner the next day and he was shocked. His car was sitting untouched outside. He want to look at it and, yes, the glove compartment was empty. There was no sign of forced entry. He came over to collect his stuff. His wife and baby stayed in the car. He seemed like an upstanding citizen (read: vindicated.)

So: our car was obviously stolen, but how? Is the transponder in the Honda key that easily duplicated? Are car thieves becoming, in effect, hackers? Is our manual in someone else's car? If it was a complicated matter to duplicate our key, why did they merely take it on a 250 mile joyride?

Thanks for any theories from the armchair Hercule Poirots on this board.

Brad

[starkfu]

Ok, now there are a few questions i would like to ask before going any further.

1. what information do you have in yours, and what info was in the acura manual, were there vin #'s and addresses, or just blank manuals?

2. Did anyone at the dealership happen to know you were going on Vacation, sales, finance, anyone?

Now i can tell you this, in my 7 years as a MECP certified first class security specialist, there are a few easy ways to bypass the transponder system that many people have access to.

1. If someone were to acquire certain info about you, i have to be vague as this is not intended as a how to for thieves, and were upstanding looking enough Honda would most likely cut a key and burn a code to it. This is quite common, but when this is done it is usually some one who works at the dealership.

2. The transponder system is a fairly simple system, and like gm's vats and ford's pats systems the transponder is a separate entity from the starter circuit, therefor it is able to be bypassed electronically, now as this is definately not an easy task an experienced person who knows what they are doing could add a half a min to the time it takes to hot wire a car to bypass the transponder. Also, since the transponder is a code based system, there are so called black boxes that can simulate codes until it finds one that works, although this is very uncommon and probably wouldn't be used on a hybrid honda. since the transponder reciever ring only has a range of about 6 in to a foot they would have to gain access to the inside of the car.

Now here is my hypothesis as i know a dealership that was caught doing this.

Someone at the dealership knew you were going on vacation, they acquired the data necessary to have a key made and found the car that they then used to stake out other cars that they could break into or steal. When they were done with it, if they were smart, they cleaned it and left it for you to recover without a trace of what happened. My guess is that alot of vehicles were broken into and any witnesses will report your vehicle and liscense plate to the police as the getaway vehicle if that was the case. Now i know you may think why would a dealership do that? well i don't have the answer to that, but i have seen this scenario many times before. Now don't get me wrong, i am not saying every or even alot of dealerships do this, i have a great relationship with the honda dealer i deal with now. but i will give you my advice that i give to all of my customers. Security is only a tool, if a thief wants your car, he will get it, the only thing you can do is be smart about what you do with your car, and make it as hard as possible for him to steal it. ie, alarm, remove door locks, remove lock rods, rewire power locks, etc. now i know this isn't an option for everyone, so be smart where you park, ie in the light, in a high traffic area. Well i hope you do find out what happened, have you filed a police report? I hope this shed some light on your situation. If you have any other questions feel free to ask.

To clarify, no i have never done this, i would love the opportunity just like the next guy to beat down a thief, i have had my car broken into twice, never stolen and never lost any equipment, only cd's and a cell phone, (that's why i burn all my cd's now!) it's my belief that if a theif gets frustrated enough he will damage your car or eqiupment and leave, but that's why we have warranties and ebay!

Good luck in your hunt, if there's any other way i can help let me know.

Greg

[ponchonutty]

Originally Posted by starkfu

Ok, now there are a few questions i would like to ask before going any further.

1. what information do you have in yours, and what info was in the acura manual, were there vin #'s and addresses, or just blank manuals?

2. Did anyone at the dealership happen to know you were going on Vacation, sales, finance, anyone?

Now i can tell you this, in my 7 years as a MECP certified first class security specialist, there are a few easy ways to bypass the transponder system that many people have access to.

1. If someone were to acquire certain info about you, i have to be vague as this is not intended as a how to for thieves, and were upstanding looking enough Honda would most likely cut a key and burn a code to it. This is quite common, but when this is done it is usually some one who works at the dealership.

2. The transponder system is a fairly simple system, and like gm's vats and ford's pats systems the transponder is a separate entity from the starter circuit, therefor it is able to be bypassed electronically, now as this is definately not an easy task an experienced person who knows what they are doing could add a half a min to the time it takes to hot wire a car to bypass the transponder. Also, since the transponder is a code based system, there are so called black boxes that can simulate codes until it finds one that works, although this is very uncommon and probably wouldn't be used on a hybrid honda. since the transponder reciever ring only has a range of about 6 in to a foot they would have to gain access to the inside of the car.

Now here is my hypothesis as i know a dealership that was caught doing this.

Someone at the dealership knew you were going on vacation, they acquired the data necessary to have a key made and found the car that they then used to stake out other cars that they could break into or steal. When they were done with it, if they were smart, they cleaned it and left it for you to recover without a trace of what happened. My guess is that alot of vehicles were broken into and any witnesses will report your vehicle and liscense plate to the police as the getaway vehicle if that was the case. Now i know you may think why would a dealership do that? well i don't have the answer to that, but i have seen this scenario many times before. Now don't get me wrong, i am not saying every or even alot of dealerships do this, i have a great relationship with the honda dealer i deal with now. but i will give you my advice that i give to all of my customers. Security is only a tool, if a thief wants your car, he will get it, the only thing you can do is be smart about what you do with your car, and make it as hard as possible for him to steal it. ie, alarm, remove door locks, remove lock rods, rewire power locks, etc. now i know this isn't an option for everyone, so be smart where you park, ie in the light, in a high traffic area. Well i hope you do find out what happened, have you filed a police report? I hope this shed some light on your situation. If you have any other questions feel free to ask.

To clarify, no i have never done this, i would love the opportunity just like the next guy to beat down a thief, i have had my car broken into twice, never stolen and never lost any equipment, only cd's and a cell phone, (that's why i burn all my cd's now!) it's my belief that if a theif gets frustrated enough he will damage your car or eqiupment and leave, but that's why we have warranties and ebay!

Good luck in your hunt, if there's any other way i can help let me know.

Greg

Yep, I too am in the alarm bizz and all what you said is about right.

Did they damage the column at all? If not, it had to be a joy ride from the inside .

[bstone210]

Greg, thank you for the response! let me see if I can answer some of your questions and we can get further to the truth...

1. Oddly, the Acura owner's manual, registration and insurance papers were all left in our car. Only our manual was missing - and I dont believe there is any relevant info, like a VIN number, on it. The thief had access to our registration and insurance info - it was all in the glove compartment - but did not take it.

2. Interestingly, my wife took the car in the week before we left for its 7000 mile checkup. She doesn't recall mentioning that we would be away though.

Question - do dealerships keep a record when keys are made? Perhaps I will call them up and ask.

Thanks again... interesting stuff.
Cheers
Brad

[ponchonutty]

Originally Posted by bstone210

Greg, thank you for the response! let me see if I can answer some of your questions and we can get further to the truth...

1. Oddly, the Acura owner's manual, registration and insurance papers were all left in our car. Only our manual was missing - and I dont believe there is any relevant info, like a VIN number, on it. The thief had access to our registration and insurance info - it was all in the glove compartment - but did not take it.

2. Interestingly, my wife took the car in the week before we left for its 7000 mile checkup. She doesn't recall mentioning that we would be away though.

Question - do dealerships keep a record when keys are made? Perhaps I will call them up and ask.

Thanks again... interesting stuff.
Cheers
Brad

If it was an inside job, I am sure that no one made any tracks as to keys being made. It isn't always as obvious as in "Gone in 60 Seconds".

[starkfu]

I would have to agree, if it was some one there, they definately wouldn't have a record of it, and i don't think they do that anyway.

Beyond that i am not sure what else you can really do, hearing your answers only reinstates what i told you before, all i can suggest is to pursue a police report and maybe whoever did it will get caught doing it again next time. I know it sounds crappy. What i don't get is why the manual from the acura was there, makes no sense to have removed it and then to remove yours? Sounds like a retarded theif to me. I am interested to know if you find anything out on this, and if there is anything i can do to help.

greg

[SilverY2KCivic]

My only question is did you have the cops come check out your car before you took it back, or did you have them come out and dust for finger prints if any existed? That's the first thing I would have had done. My other curiosity is why was your Honda manual missing, and an Acura manual sitting in the car?

[ponchonutty]

Originally Posted by SilverY2KCivic

My only question is did you have the cops come check out your car before you took it back, or did you have them come out and dust for finger prints if any existed? That's the first thing I would have had done. My other curiosity is why was your Honda manual missing, and an Acura manual sitting in the car?

My question is why steal THAT car? I would have picked a much more fun vehicle to drive other than a hybrid. I mean, they aren't the most exciting car to drive

[60hz163.5db]

hhmm well You'd be suprised on how easy it is to get a key that will just unlock the door. Not making this a how to manual but the thief would not have to know much about you, and could get the information with out knowing you. As for the transponders honda's are the easiest to bypass but most manufacterers immobilizer systems can be bypassed. I will give a hint: There are usually two of them one in the car and one under the hood. The key i described above will only unlock the door and will not start the car needing programmed. Only benz keeps records on which keys go to what. The chip is usually programmed into the immobilizers memory sorta like alarm remotes. None of them are exactly the same. As for the owners manuals it's prolly like a calling card or something cuz if the person has the car why take the owners manual just to leave it in another car?

[bstone210]

Originally Posted by SilverY2KCivic

My only question is did you have the cops come check out your car before you took it back, or did you have them come out and dust for finger prints if any existed? That's the first thing I would have had done. My other curiosity is why was your Honda manual missing, and an Acura manual sitting in the car?

Hi folks, thanks for all the intriguing responses. I am a writer for Newsweek magazine and am actually hoping to tell this story in an article sometime soon. The piece could explore these security features and why they are so vulnerable.

To answer the question above, we did summon SF's finest when we located the car. They met us at the vehicle, gave it a cursory glance, but seemed totally uninterested in further investigation. We even asked them if they wanted to dust for fingerprints; they didn't.

Brad

[SilverY2KCivic]

Originally Posted by bstone210

Hi folks, thanks for all the intriguing responses. I am a writer for Newsweek magazine and am actually hoping to tell this story in an article sometime soon. The piece could explore these security features and why they are so vulnerable.

To answer the question above, we did summon SF's finest when we located the car. They met us at the vehicle, gave it a cursory glance, but seemed totally uninterested in further investigation. We even asked them if they wanted to dust for fingerprints; they didn't.

Brad

That seems rather odd. You'd think something of this nature would interest them more than a normal GTA since with it's apparent carefulness, it could unlock a while crime ring within the city. Obviously they don't care. If it were me, I'd file a complaint against the PD first thing tomorrow morning stating that your car was stolen, and they refused to investigate the matter even upon you requesting them to investigate and do finger print checks and such. I mean after all, the car could have been parked right in front of the suspect's place of residence and they'd have one up on where to find them at.