Has One Affected You?

[DantesInferno]

In the novel, Dorian Gray , Dorian cites a book, named only as the "yellow book" as being a source of his corruption, robbing him of innocence and morals. Do you think that a book can have such an influence on one individual? Or is the motivation to corrupt oneself, to break away from morals, always within our own means? If you do think that a book can have such an influence, how much of a part does the person who gave an individual that book play in the subsequent corruption?

I have my ideas and thoughts, but I'll wait to post them until later.

[DantesInferno]

Damn, I sound like an English teacher. Sorry.

[del]

depends on the book. what's this "yellow book" all about anyway? just any book cannot affect an individual in any manner. there has to be a context. so give it some context and tell us the story about this "yellow book". or should we just all read Dorian Gray and find out for ourselves then get back to you?:grey:

[texan]

Responsibility lies within oneself, it's a pervading concept of justice and morality IMO. One of the primary things that really bothers me about a sliver of today's American society is the idea that one is to a large extent not respsonsible for their actions, given they had a bad childhood, ate too many twinkies... or whatever we (aka lawyers) think of next. Any idea posed to an individual, whether through talk, reading or any other form of communication, is assumed as truth ONLY by that person's decision and not by the source's supply of said idea. This is core to my ethos, and among other things the reason why that fool John Walker (Taliban Ranger) should be punished under penalty of treason.

[1989 DX R]

I hate english teachers. I dont wanna have a deep meaningful life! I wanna be superficial! DO YOU HEAR ME!? I DONT CARE!!

[Moppie]

Having spent 4 years reading a variety of philosophical works I have to see yes, its entirly possible for a piece of writing to make someone radicaly change thier ideas and opinions of the world.

[texan]

Originally posted by Moppie
Having spent 4 years reading a variety of philosophical works I have to see yes, its entirly possible for a piece of writing to make someone radicaly change thier ideas and opinions of the world.

But is the source of one's corruption respsonsible for the corruption? That is the real question, the concept that suggesting something illegal/immoral/impious is the real crime, and not the action of acepting these ideas. I for one say NO.

[1989 DX R]

Whoa...throw me for a logic loop why doncha? I think that the less i use my brain, the more beer i can pour down my hatch.


Just kidding.

[Moppie]

Originally posted by texan
Responsibility lies within oneself, it's a pervading concept of justice and morality IMO. ........................... the reason why that fool John Walker (Taliban Ranger) should be punished under penalty of treason.

So are you advocating total free will, or are you punishing it?
(told you I would be nice to you. )

[G-Forces]

Originally posted by texan
Responsibility lies within oneself, it's a pervading concept of justice and morality IMO. One of the primary things that really bothers me about a sliver of today's American society is the idea that one is to a large extent not respsonsible for their actions, given they had a bad childhood, ate too many twinkies... or whatever we (aka lawyers) think of next.

I could not agree with you more.

This is core to my ethos, and among other things the reason why that fool John Walker (Taliban Ranger) should be punished under penalty of treason.

I don't claim to know all the details of this situation but I think he should be charged like a member of the Taliban and exiled from the US for the rest of his natural life.

[texan]

Originally posted by Moppie



So are you advocating total free will, or are you punishing it?
(told you I would be nice to you. )

Don't be nice, be honest... we're all better off that way IMO.


I am simply lending responsiblity to one's actions, which is morally neutral in regards to free will. For the record, YES free will does exist, and YES our actions have consequences... and those cannot be avoided due to a weakness in one's character. If you make a decision the least you can do is stick with it, I have no respect for those who abandon their ideals based on the consequenses of their decisions. In short, anyone who either lets others make decisions for them, or lets the consequenses of action primarily effect their actions, is pathetic. Make your decisions based upon your beliefs, I may not agree but I will at least respect your position. If one believes that our actions define our existence (which I do), we can at least presume that standing behind those actions is at the core of moral reasoning.

[Moppie]

Mate, you just cramed a lot into a very small space.

I'll let Fritz reply to your comments on consequentialism as I agree with them but I have a feeling he won't. (although I do see flaws, and if he dosnt pick them up I will, (if I remember)) (but basicly books have been written on consequentialism and having ideals.)


I said what I said before because, (and I think you picked up on this) you started your post by mentioning individualy resposiblity, and by doing so advocating free will and free choice as a good thing. Then at the end of your post you attacked John Walker for practicing his free will, making a choice and following through with it.

Haveing responsiblity for ones actions in my opinion requires free will and an awarness of your actions. If you are unaware of what you are doing, (awarness of consequences is not nessacry, and not always possible) and unable to control what you are doing, (as a lack, or disregard of free will would imply) then you can not be responsible for your actions, you are nothing more than a pawn to either determinism, behavourism or some such other non-free will based idea. Can you hold a 3mnth old child responsible for thier actions?

Make your decisions based upon your beliefs, I may not agree but I will at least respect your position. If one believes that our actions define our existence (which I do), we can at least presume that standing behind those actions is at the core of moral reasoning

.

Does this mean you repsect the position of someone like Osama bin Laden? he has after all based his actions upon his beliefs, and Im quite certian they are differnt to yours?

Can you explain the link between actions defining our existance and standing behind those actions then standing at the core of our moral beliefs a little further? (It sounds like you have moral thoery based around the motivations for our actions?)

Don't be nice, be honest... we're all better off that way IMO.

Actualy I was being sarcastic it was one of those long days at work when you wish you had simply not got up in the morning.

[YogsVR4]

The Bible, Koran and Mein Komph have been known to influence lives for better and worse. So its clear that it has happened in the past and will continue to happen in the future. I am not familiar with the Dorian Gray so I cant comment on the direct reference, however, people with weak wills and a soft moral center are easily swayed by a master manipulator. Think of all the suicide cults throughout history – they were lead by dynamic individuals and followed by the easy to influence. A well written piece could accomplish the same thing. Not only that the written word can reach more people and have a wider impact.

[texan]

Moppie- 3 month old children don't have an ethos yet, the formulation of such takes years and guidance by parents and peers. That's why the parents must take most responsibility for your actions when you are young.

I respect how Bin Laden came to his conclusions, not the conclusions themself. So long as someone takes the time to open their eyes and look at a problem, then find an answer which makes good moral and ethical sense to them, I respect that process. Of course if you come to the wrong conclusions (relative to mine) I'll disagree, and on something as insidious as international terrorism I'll be ready to fight against your beliefs. But that's neither here nor there, the point is that free will and inteliigence gives us the ability to make moral decisions, and not using these gifts is as great a crime as anything else.


YogsVR4- The Qur'an, Bible, Tora and whatnot are just books, any influence they carry over people is due to those peoples' acceptance of these world viewpoints as truth. Your point is well taken though, and echos my own in that it's the weak people who aren't deserving of respect. They may inherit the earth, but not until I'm done with it . Regardless of their belief structure, the point of respect is in their journey to it as much as the final destination.