Turbo or S2?? Best Buy 944? (Determined Buyer)

[tire-smoker]

A line truck just destroyed my modded BMW 325is , and I'm in the market for a new car. I have about 10,000 and am lookin for the best value in a porsche. I want to mod the car. Here are the questions.

S2 or Turbo for:

Mods?
best looking kits, wheel fitments, general stuff like seats and carbon.

Turbo upgrade?
better to upgrade the Turbo or slap a new turbo on the S2.

Parts?
which is cheaper and more accessible

Problems?
which has more problems

Attractability?
which one is more likely to attract the women.

[Cbass]

The 944 turbo, also known as the 951, and 944S2 share the same body, right down to the aerodynamic aids and interior, so from that point, they are identical.

For a turbo upgrade, the 951 is the easier route, but not the best route. If you want to spend a hefty chunk of change and get the best motor, the 944S2 engine is the way to go. It's physically larger, at 3 liters, vs 2.5 liters for the 951. It has a DOHC cylinder head, and 4 valves per cylinder, vs the SOHC head of the 951. It's just a better engine, if you're going to build it from the ground up.

The 944S2 is cheaper on the parts, and more reliable as well. This isn't to say that the 951 is not reliable, it is. The 944S2 is just exceptionally reliable.

As for problems, both cars are known to incite Honda driving highschool kids to prompt street races

Women who are not Porsche nuts will not be able to tell the difference between the S2 and the 951, they are indistinguishable except for the Turbo and S2 badges. That being said, once they hear turbo whistle, they might be able to tell the difference.

[89Turbo944]

944 Turbo all the way, reliable if you keep it maintained, wow facter for ladies, and a blast to drive

Have fun getting a 944

[89Turbo944]

O and Turbos are SOOOOO much more fun

[Ben944]

id say get an S2 and put a turbo on it. you'll get the best of both worlds.

[87Porsche951]

944 Turbo is good for buyers who like top end. Good power after 3800RPM till redline. S2 makes good power at all rpms. S2 is a smoother running engine. The aftermarket is larger for the Turbo models. There are many 944 Turbo owners who stroke and/or bore there blocks. The 16V DOHC head can be put on the 951 block with alteration. If your gonna make really big power gains i suggest it. Theres not turbo kit available for S2 but there is Supercharger available for $5K+.

Ben you cant just slap a turbo on a S2. Even if you had a turbo and intercooler fabed to a S2 you couldnt run decent boost because the engine wasnt engineered for the stress of a turbo. Cheaper and more practical to buy the Supercharger.

S2's are good for short tracks were you have to brake hard for a turn and then accilirate because the S2 makes its tq lower in the powerband. Turbo is a blast on highways & freeways. Id suggest a 951 and increase displacement and get a S2 head altered to fit and worked on for good breathing. Cams are a must and buy a good turbo. replace the wastegate and Diverter valve and you have a really good car. 944 Turbo's have lots of potential. European Car Mag is doing a 951 project right now.

When buying any 944 make sure it as a complete maintanance record and that everything has been replaced when it should have been. You dont want to get a deal on a great 944 and than drive it home and the timing belt snap and have a trashed motor.

[Cbass]

Kokeln makes a turbo kit for the S2, they lower the compression using shorter connecting rods, and make between 400-550hp, depending on the engine.

To say the S2 engine is not engineered for turbocharging is somewhat misleading. It wasn't expressly designed with that purpose in mind, but it doesn't make it at all difficult to turbocharge. It's no different than turbocharging a Honda 4 cylinder that was "not engineered" for turbocharging, yet people do that quite often. Lower the compression, fit the kokeln manifold and turbocharger, go with 3" exhaust, and figure out something for the fuel/ignition curves. Chips work for that, or standalone, or just a piggyback controller. There are many choices, most of them better than buying a 951 and dumping money into it

[87Porsche951]

cbass, you have to remember those honda;s they turbo cant handle more than 6psi of boost without unrelaiblity problems and potential motor damage.

A stock 944 Turbo is set for 10.9psi boost & can can handle about 15-16psi on stock internals and still be reliable.

Now lets see a honda or S2 handle 16psi and last.

S2 would be great to boost since it does make great n/a power. Many 951 owners build turbocharged S2 based 3.0L engines for there cars but those engines are built from the ground up.

[Cbass]

Originally Posted by 87Porsche951

cbass, you have to remember those honda;s they turbo cant handle more than 6psi of boost without unrelaiblity problems and potential motor damage.

A stock 944 Turbo is set for 10.9psi boost & can can handle about 15-16psi on stock internals and still be reliable.

Now lets see a honda or S2 handle 16psi and last.

You would have to be crazy to turbocharge an S2 with 10.8:1 compression, that's the point of the shorter connecting rods, they lower the compression ratio to a more managable 8.5:1, IIRC.

Those little honda motors can tolerate the boost just fine, as long as the compression is lowered and the fuel and ignition timing is recalibrated for forced induction.

Originally Posted by 87Porsche951

S2 would be great to boost since it does make great n/a power. Many 951 owners build turbocharged S2 based 3.0L engines for there cars but those engines are built from the ground up.

Yes, there are two ways to go about it, either using the 951 head, which eliminates the big advantage of having the 16 valve head in the first place, or by using the 16V head. You just have to lower the compression, and change your engine management. That and fit a turbo header...

[87Porsche951]

Actually you can run 10.8:1 compression on 16psi of boost Your gonna need good engine managment and keep it in tune and run high octane fuel and maybe even race fuel but for a street car its not practical.

[YeTi]

this is a little off the subject, but i don't like the body style of the 968 over the sweet curves of the 944...
would it be possible to swap a 3.0L T from a 968 turbo s into a 944 s2?
if so, what is the cost?
and don't tell me to just get an s2 turbo...
the 968 engines came with the variocam technology thatincreased efficiency and power. the 3.0L turbo engine of the 968 puts out 310 HP stock!!

[87Porsche951]

First id like to see you even find a motor from a 968 Turbo S. Those cars are very rare. Any 968 will bolt right into any 944. I actually love the looks of the 968. Even regular 968's are still pretty pricey and sell for $30,000+ and you can imagine what the Rare 968 Turbo S would cost.

944 Turbo S & 968 Turbo S are both worth more in stock form.

I have seen a few 951 owners build a turbocharged 16V DOHC 3.3L L4 that was based on a n/a 968 block. You just have to ask your self how much money you willing to put into such a project. to me sucha engine would make a killer race motor in a 951 but is it worth the investment for a street car. If i remember correctly all those engine's didnt use the Motronic engine management.

Originally Posted by YeTi

this is a little off the subject, but i don't like the body style of the 968 over the sweet curves of the 944...
would it be possible to swap a 3.0L T from a 968 turbo s into a 944 s2?
if so, what is the cost?
and don't tell me to just get an s2 turbo...
the 968 engines came with the variocam technology thatincreased efficiency and power. the 3.0L turbo engine of the 968 puts out 310 HP stock!!

[Cbass]

Originally Posted by 87Porsche951

Actually you can run 10.8:1 compression on 16psi of boost Your gonna need good engine managment and keep it in tune and run high octane fuel and maybe even race fuel but for a street car its not practical.

Not on pump gas. 10.8:1 compression is pushing the limits of 92 octane fuel, adding boost on top of that makes things tricky. An interesting note is, gaseous fuels such as LPG and hydrogen have a RON of between 120 and 135.

Originally Posted by YeTi

this is a little off the subject, but i don't like the body style of the 968 over the sweet curves of the 944...
would it be possible to swap a 3.0L T from a 968 turbo s into a 944 s2?
if so, what is the cost?
and don't tell me to just get an s2 turbo...
the 968 engines came with the variocam technology thatincreased efficiency and power. the 3.0L turbo engine of the 968 puts out 310 HP stock!!

As I understand it, they ditched the variocam when they ditched the 16 valve head in the Turbo S. I think you'd be much better off getting a 968 or 944S2 naturally aspirated, and turbocharging it, and you'd probably spend quite a bit less. Of course, the 968 TS engine should swap directly in, it's the same bottom end in the same engine bay. BTW, there were only 20 turbocharged 968s made from the factory.

If you're serious about going the 16 valve turbo route, talk to the good people at Kokeln.

http://kokeln.com/r_d/flipper.shtml

As 87Porsche951 has said, it's not cheap. I did some pricing on this a couple years back, and here's what I came up with.

$2000 for the custom Carrillo connecting rods, they lower the compression and provide enough bottom end strength to support 600hp.

I think Kokeln wanted $500 for the turbo manifold, but don't quote me on that. Figure another $1500 for a good ball bearing turbo, another $500 for a decent intercooler and all the custom plumbing that will need to be done. $500-$2000 for standalone engine management, $500 for a 3" exhaust upgrade, another $1000 in fuel system upgrades, etc. It's not cheap, and it adds up really fast.

[YeTi]

i see...
money might not be an option...
i'm in the air force and am getting a $30,000 bonus.
how would i get/make a 3.3L L4? turbo?

[Cbass]

The 3.3 liter engines are strokers, you would need to have your stock crank stroked by welding and offset grinding, or get a new crank made. Figure big bucks here, new rods and pistons will probably be necessary as well. At this point, you should really be thinking about extra machining work, like O ringing, cylinder sleeves, and a good main bearing girdle. There are a few kits out there, and then there are domestic companies like Scat and Crower who will make a custom bottom end for you, to your specifications, figure around $2000-$5000 just in building the bottom end.

Then it comes down to the other things, the turbocharger, fuel system, exhaust system, engine management, cylinder head upgrades, drivetrain upgrades, and pretty soon you've burned right through your $30K.

Your best bet would be to consult with the guys at Kokeln and Powerhaus, since they have experience doing this, and the best you're going to get here is speculation. Powerhaus sells 3.0 16V turbo conversions for $22K.

www.powerhaus.com

www.kokeln.com