Is an LS swap not worth doing?

[csaddict]

Is it worth getting an LS swap for my 96 hatch and then going turbo in a year or just go b18c1 and leave it stock.

[Jdm_GUY]

IT's all in what kind of performance you need and for what use.
For a daily-driver, i'd go all-motor, all the heat generated by the turbo and the additional lines may not be too good for grocery-getting purposes.

Whatever you decide, i got an engine for you.
b18b, b18c gsr, i got b16b type-R civic, b18c teg type-R, and 99+ b18c SPEC-R (type-r engine that's track-ready). I also have b20b obd1 and obd2.

[93weed_eater]

do the ls turbo. the ls is a great engine to turbo and relatively cheap compared to the gsr swap. also the ls can handle up to 12psi PROPERLY tuned. you can turn down the boost for going around town. also the turbo is cooled down by coolant/water and oil so it should be the same temp as the rest of your engine bay in the first place if not then not much more. alot of people use turbo cars as a daily driver.

[90CRXZCSi]

IMO i would go with the LS Turbo. Lower CR than the B18C and you could boost more in stock purposes.

[Smokn91HB]

You think LS turbo on built LS would be better than crvtec b20 (frankeinstien) built turbo motor??

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by Smokn91HB

You think LS turbo on built LS would be better than crvtec b20 (frankeinstien) built turbo motor??

Yea, I would go with the LS turbo. If you really want vtec, the lsvtec it. The B20 is the same block and head as a B18B1, but it is bored out. This, or course, equals thinner cylinder walls, which equals weaker cylinders, which equals the abilty to handle less boost. The LS will handle less boost, put down more power than a crv (though a little less torque). In the end, it will have greater power output due to the added boost pressure it can handle. And as I said above, if you still are fiending on gettin a vtec, you can do an ls-vtec. And as for a turbo on a BUILT LS? Oh hella yes, re-sleeve it with AEBS or Darton sleeves, put in some crower rods, srp pistons (made by JE), build up that short block. The AEBS sleeves can handle upwards of 55+ psi, so you'll be fine. None of us will go near that. The stronger rods and pistons can handle the added boost you'd throw as well. Put in some sotronger oversized ferrera vavle and spring, do a valve job, put in a crower cam with a turbo profile....you'll have a motor built to handle more boost than you'd throw at it...it could easily handle 20-25, which would put you around 400hp, which is enough. That will defiantly beat a CR-vtec. Even a stock LS boosted to the max safe psi will have more output, due to the extra boost pressure the LS can handle. And if you want the vtec, then lsvtec it.

[boosted331]

You can make decent numbers out of an LS/turbo motor, but if you're going to go through the hassle of sleeving it and throwing in rods and pistons (I hope you were kidding by recommending SRP pistons for a high boost setup) go with the vtec head, as it flows better and your car will make more power as an LS/vtec. Here's a stock LS motor with a blockguard, an SC61 at 14 psi, and a hondata.

If you're going to bitch and say "no, the LS makes more power because of no overlap!!!!!!!!1" just don't. Heres a stock internal GSR motor with a 3MM headgasket (8.3:1 compression) ARP studs, and the same precision SC61, but this is at 11 psi, again with hondata.



That overlap sure seems to be holding his setup back, I think he should switch to a vtec head

[Smokn91HB]

Thanks for the advise guys.... its all helping me make my future decisions! but what c/r should i make the block for say about 15 psi (street) and 20 possible more at the track.... once again thanks for all advice

[boosted331]

Originally Posted by Smokn91HB

Thanks for the advise guys.... its all helping me make my future decisions! but what c/r should i make the block for say about 15 psi (street) and 20 possible more at the track.... once again thanks for all advice

Depending on how good your tuner is anywhere from 9:1-10:1 is fine.

[Smokn91HB]

what size turbo should i run for 15-20 psi on a fully built LS.... for street/strip??.. any recommendations? thanks alot

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by boosted331

You can make decent numbers out of an LS/turbo motor, but if you're going to go through the hassle of sleeving it and throwing in rods and pistons (I hope you were kidding by recommending SRP pistons for a high boost setup) go with the vtec head, as it flows better and your car will make more power as an LS/vtec. Here's a stock LS motor with a blockguard, an SC61 at 14 psi, and a hondata.

If you're going to bitch and say "no, the LS makes more power because of no overlap!!!!!!!!1" just don't. Heres a stock internal GSR motor with a 3MM headgasket (8.3:1 compression) ARP studs, and the same precision SC61, but this is at 11 psi, again with hondata.

That overlap sure seems to be holding his setup back, I think he should switch to a vtec head

Okay, I am not even going to get into this fully at the current time, I am ot going to comment on those printouts, though you'll notice thouse came from 2 different dyno's...that makes a big difference, there can be as much as a 20-30 hp change among dyno's when it comes to that power range...you can't accurretly compare 2 sheets from 2 different dyno's for 2 different cars against each other....I am currently not here to agrue, and I never said the LS made more power due to no overlap...there is overlap, just not high overlap. there's less of it. As for the piston's, your right, there not the world's greatest, but they're not the worst either...it's what came to mind at the time...they'd at least hold up better than the stock ones will, though you're right, not my first choice at all...plus if you're spending the money to re-sleeve, IMO you should buy the best...That being said, it's not neccarily the power issue that makes high overlap not the greatest choice...I am well aware of what a boosted ls-vtec can do. I know a guy in san deigo named robbie potts who has a 500hp boosted ls-vtec....he swapped off the ls head and put on a b16a head way back in like 99 or so, maybe 00...long before it became popular. He did all the work, designed the turbo system, even constructed the turbo manifold himself (of course, besides his knowlegde of car's, the fact he owned a machine shop and had an bachlors degree in engineering helped out too). I am well-aware there is power to be made with vtec, so please don't assume I am one of those idiot's who think's power can't be made boosting a vtec, just cuz I heard it somewhere. There's more to the whole issue at hand than you give credit for. Like I said, I am not here to agure with you, espeically not in this thread. This thread is here to help this guy out, and that being said...

...Smokn91HB, what is the HP goal you have in mind...before you choose a turbo, you really need to have the end HP goal, then you can figure the flow rate needed to reachthe goal, and the approperate boost (psi). There's of course more to it than that, that's the basic verison...still, a HP goal is the first starting point when choicing a turbo, you need to know this to figure out the flow and boost needed to reach the goal, among other things.

[Smokn91HB]

I will try to start out with about 300 HP or soo but i want to end up with maybe 450 or possibly close to 500

[pheurton-skeurto]

Originally Posted by boosted331

You can make decent numbers out of an LS/turbo motor, but if you're going to go through the hassle of sleeving it and throwing in rods and pistons (I hope you were kidding by recommending SRP pistons for a high boost setup) go with the vtec head, as it flows better and your car will make more power as an LS/vtec. Here's a stock LS motor with a blockguard, an SC61 at 14 psi, and a hondata.

If you're going to bitch and say "no, the LS makes more power because of no overlap!!!!!!!!1" just don't. Heres a stock internal GSR motor with a 3MM headgasket (8.3:1 compression) ARP studs, and the same precision SC61, but this is at 11 psi, again with hondata.

That overlap sure seems to be holding his setup back, I think he should switch to a vtec head

no way dude, im just not buying this. an ls motor is much easier to turbo and has much more boost potential. i am very, VERY skeptical of your printouts...8.3:1 with 11psi?!?! also, dyno charts are not the final line, good so you can do some research over the internet and find a couple "dyno" charts to bolster your case...as eckoman said they are 2 different dynos and 2 different cars, different guys doing the testing...i dont buy it. dyno charts are just like the bible...its says one thing, but everyone tries to prove different things with it...no where in the bible does it say its alright to judge others but people find passages to back this up...just as youre doing with the charts. may not be a good analogy but you get my point...ill believe that shit when i see it...

[eckoman_pdx]

smokn91HB, first I'll take your question, since this thread is to help you out....okay...now, you want to start with 300HP, but end up with 450-500...well, chances are you'll need a different turbo to get to each level, uless you want to push one maybe to the point where it's extrememly ineffiecent at both sides (300 and 450). So, keep that in mind for there. That being said, if you want SERIOUSLY want to boost it that high, you will NEED RE-SLEEVE IT...PERIOD. Don't mess around with any cheap thing like a "block gaurd," it will not hold up under the boost you will need to run to achive that kind of power, AEBS makes some damn good sleeves.....the rods will have to go also, use crower rods (not the econo crower rods). These are very strong rods, and will be well suited for your purpose. Also, get some good pistions, JE Pistions or Weisco makes good pistions. I read somewhere thar JE Swain Tech Coated Pistions are better, I know that's what robbie potts used for his set-up. But you'd have to call and find out the exacts, as to whether that's true or not. Also, re-gardless of whether you LS/Vtec it or not, You will need to Port and Polish the head...a full race port and polish would be good with that kind of output goal. Re-working the quench area will also help, and this will eqaul more complete combustion (and less chance of denination). New Valves springs, and re-tainers will be needed..ferrera makes some good ones, and crower makes some good springs and re-tainers, though there titanium ones are spendy. A VERY IMPORTANT part of breaking 500HP is the fuel system delievery...don't botch that up....for that kind of power, you will want a stand alone fuel computer, and the injectors will be BIG with a HIGH flow rate....robbie potts used a Federal Mogul Speed Pro stand alone fuel computer and 1,000cc injectors...this is the same set-up used by Papadakis and Kubo (when she raced Hondas). As for what flow rate you'll need, I don't have all this stuff I need to calcutale with it, it being the holiday's and all. I really don't want to give a wild guess on something like the needed flow rate. As for the PSI needed, 13 should get you 300HP, give or take. But for 450-500HP..we're talking in the 20's, like 24-28 most likely, depending ont he set-up. At this much boost, DON'T SKIMP COSTS, unles you like re-building blown motors....It'll figure out some number later when I get back after the holidays.

Now,

Originally Posted by pheurton-skeurto

no way dude, im just not buying this. an ls motor is much easier to turbo and has much more boost potential. i am very, VERY skeptical of your printouts...8.3:1 with 11psi?!?! also, dyno charts are not the final line, good so you can do some research over the internet and find a couple "dyno" charts to bolster your case...as eckoman said they are 2 different dynos and 2 different cars, different guys doing the testing...i dont buy it. dyno charts are just like the bible...its says one thing, but everyone tries to prove different things with it...no where in the bible does it say its alright to judge others but people find passages to back this up...just as youre doing with the charts. may not be a good analogy but you get my point...ill believe that shit when i see it...

I am glad to see you came in here and thought the same things I was thinking. As you could tell, I didn't beleive those numbers. They don't add up. The accepted norm is about 10HP for ech pound of boost (psi) you add, so, under this assumtion, that should be 11, lets be generous and say 120HP added to his "GSR." Now, we both know a GSR stock flywheel hp is 170, and about 150-155 at the wheels...Let's say 155HP...that 11psi is not gonna get him 200HP...not from 11psi..but wait, as you said, 8.3:1 c/r? 11psi? on a stock gsr block...first off, the GSR block, rods, and pistions won't hold up under that boost for long. Second, I don't believe for 1 minute he dropped 1.7 off the c/r with just a "head gasket." That being said, even if he only swapped pistions, the block is "not stock" as he stated. Even then, a c/r of 8:3:1 would drop the n/a HP of the GSR conisderably...if there is no way he came reach 354HP with the stock GSR c/r at 11psi, there is NO WAY he'll do it at 11psi. Granted, lower c/r pistions reduce the risk of detination and generally are one of the components of running higher boost...but 8.3:1 is too damn low, that car will NOT BE MAKING ANY 170hp AND 140hp OFF BOOST....I mean, we can all do the math....a gsr with a "stock block" running a 10:1c/r won't put near those numbers down to the wheels; there's no way a 8.3:1 c/r will make a HIGHER OFF BOOST PRE-VTEC OUTPUT than a 10.0:1 GSR (USDM, 10.6:1 jdm) or a B16A (10.2:1 USDM, 10.4:1 JDM)......that's bullshit....no gsr, or b16a, or ls/vtec, will put down those pre-boost pre-vtec numbers...period. It's commen knowlegde that lowering the c/r will help reduce pre-detination at high boost levels, that's why it's done....but it's also commen knowlegde that lower the c/r also reducesthe n/a power output level, which would be the pre-boost pre-vtec output you show...now since it was DROPPED from 10.0:1 (assuming it's USDM, 10.6:1 if it's JDM), there is NO WAY with a drop to 8.3:1 you will make MORE N/A PRE-BOOST PRE-VTEC POWER TAND TORQUE. I don't care what motor it is, b16a, gsr, ls, ls/vtec, cr/vtec, type-r....this is not going to happen....since those pre-boost pre-vtec number's don't hold true at all for any one of these "normal" Honda motors, there is NO WAY IN HELL your "stock internal GSR, w/ only ARP studs and a 3mm head gasket, an SC61 and a Hondata will make those off boost pre-vtec numbers...let alone the final output numbers....you must think we are all plum dumb or something. Also, I love the way these printout ONLY SHOW NUMBERS...they don't show A), the dyno type, B)the car being tested, C)the motor, and D)who the tester was....now, anyone familer with dyno's knows these are shown on a dyno printout generally. With your number's so far off do begin with, do you really expect anyone to even CONSIDER A DYNO SHEET WITHOUT ANY OF THESE???? As pheurton-skeurto said:

Originally Posted by pheurton-skeurto

ill believe that shit when i see it...

[boosted331]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

11psi? on a stock gsr block...first off, the GSR block, rods, and pistions won't hold up under that boost for long.

He daily drives the car on 11 PSI, the same stock internals GSR motor took 420 WHP. Hes a trained hondata tuner and an engineer, I'm pretty confident that his motor is going to survive.

Second, I don't believe for 1 minute he dropped 1.7 off the c/r with just a "head gasket."

Do some damn math you bozo. I'll even help you. [url=http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/compcalc/compcalc.php]Click here for a CR calculator for hondas. Put in all the stock GSR specs, you get 10:1. Put in the specs for a 3MM inline pro headgasket (or .118 inches, incase you don't know how to use a calculator) and you get 8.3:1.[/b]

there is NO WAY IN HELL your "stock internal GSR, w/ only ARP studs and a 3mm head gasket, an SC61 and a Hondata will make those off boost pre-vtec numbers...let alone the final output numbers....you must think we are all plum dumb or something. Also, I love the way these printout ONLY SHOW NUMBERS...they don't show A), the dyno type, B)the car being tested, C)the motor, and D)who the tester was....now, anyone familer with dyno's knows these are shown on a dyno printout generally. With your number's so far off do begin with, do you really expect anyone to even CONSIDER A DYNO SHEET WITHOUT ANY OF THESE????

www.boosted-hybrid.com Like I said, he's an engineer and a trained hondata tuner. Go to his site, tell him hes full of shit on his setup. I'm done arguing with you because you're just plain WRONG.

aaa