BIG Brakes, Will 91 Interga Kunckles fit a 90 DX lowered 2 inches?

[Alan Wil]

Ok you B16, B18, H22, H23 swap and turbo guys...

Trying to do a 11 inch BIG brake upgrade as shown here:
http://hybrid2.honda-perf.org/bigbrakes.html

I'm trying to do this wihout using the "RARE" 90-91 Civic EX knuckles/hubs, but instead using Interga LS kunckles, and 93-96 Prelude VTEC rotors, redrilled to 4x100, 91-94 Accord Calipers as noted on the above link.

Fast cars require brakes that stop the car FAST if you don't want to get killed. There are "commercial" big brake kits, but after spennding $$$$ money on a engine swap or turbo a cheap way to get bigger brakes using OEM parts from a heavier car would be nice wouldn't it?

So can someone please clarify if 91 Integra LS Steering knuckles can "sucessfully" be used on a 4th generation 90 Honda Civic DX?

(Sucessfully means the car can be aligned, not just the parts bolting up.)

Does ANYONE have a printout of the before and after alignment specs that has done this swap? (Or at least the after one?)

From what I have found out so far is that some persons say the Integra LS Steering knuckles work fine, and others say it messes up steering geometry BADLY. The thing is NO-ONE has gotten a print-out of their alignment specs to see what is changed by the swap!

Brian Gillespie at Hasport said: " Yeah you can put those on, just get it aligned afterwards.".... (He said they only did (1) brake upgrade, and that was 3-5 years ago!)

That sounds great but from what research I have done so far some people say the Integra units will be ok, and I have read that others say the Integra parts add allot of positive camber.(3+ degree's ???) And then some others say it adds Negative camber, or messes up the CASTER. Lots of misinformation on this subject!


(Note: Brian Hasty at FastBrakes could not confirm if they worked or not… Brian Hasty is a super nice guy by the way!)

From what research I have done so far swapping Integra braking components/suspension seems to be a "commonly" asked question. But NO-One knows by how MUCH Caster, Camber, Roll center height, bumpsteer, etc is affected.

Please post your specs people!

Thanks

[91civicDXdude]

it will work fine, just get it aligned afterwards. It will help with your camber problem, if the car is lowered, you should just have about neutral camber.

stock ride height you will have a problem with \ / though

[EF You]

my civic is sitting at stock height, but without an engine, and its got positive camber like woah!

im using integra knuckles, and im pretty sure once i drop the b16a in, and lower the car, that everything will be fine. in fact, i took my camber kit off because i know it will be fine

[KoRnSaQ]

personaly i would keep the camber kit because my friends crx has a b18 in it, with teg knuckles and it is owered about 3 1/2 in. and he had to have the camber kit to get it lining up right

[Alan Wil]

Originally Posted by incucivic

my civic is sitting at stock height, but without an engine, and its got positive camber like woah!

im using integra knuckles, and im pretty sure once i drop the b16a in, and lower the car, that everything will be fine. in fact, i took my camber kit off because i know it will be fine

Originally Posted by incucivic

my civic is sitting at stock height, but without an engine, and its got positive camber like woah!

im using integra knuckles, and im pretty sure once i drop the b16a in, and lower the car, that everything will be fine. in fact, i took my camber kit off because i know it will be fine

OK…

1: Got any idea "How many degrees positive camber" the Integra knuckles add?

2: I would assume since you are at stock ride height your camber was pretty close to zero BEFORE, (What I’m trying to determine is EXACTLY how many degrees of positive camber the Integra parts add) As you probably know each inch the car is lowered equates to about 1 degree negative camber… My car is lowered a little less than 2 inches…. If the Integra parts add 10 degree’s positive camber (Woah!) that would be a problem.


3: You say it’s got POSITVE camber like “woah!” How much extra does a B16a weigh over what was in the car? (By the way what model /year car do you have? Your “sign” does not say. I see you have made a lot of posts, and I’ve read quite a few of them but don’t remember off hand what year car you have. As a suggestion how about adding a “sign” that gives the year /model etc of your car. That way when someone is looking for info (such as will Integra knuckles fit a 90 Civic Dx) the info can be tied to a particular year /model. I would assume your car is a 88-91 CRX from the forum you are posting in… But allot of times people post in multiple forums. (Especially if they have several cars like I do)

4: You say you have Integra knuckles on the car now… What model /year Integra did they come off of? ABS or Non-ABS ?… (Non-ABS I assume?)


Thanks for the info look forward to hearing back from you. Please do respond ASAP as I’m trying to find out for sure if the Integra parts will at least get the camber “close” to spec before the Integra parts get gone.

It’s my wife’s car so I need to be sure I don’t screw it up if you know what I mean.

* * *

FYI for all you guys out there that do not have access to an alignment machine:

Sears & Roebuck carries a tool called a Protractor part # 9 / 39840 That has a degreed wheel, two flat sides, and a pointer that swings freely to show “degrees” for about <$10.00 that will get you pretty close on setting the camber and can be used to set caster as well. You use it by putting the car on level ground, then take apiece of wood, or better yet steel and put it across the face of the rim, then put the device up against the wood/steel to see what the camber is.

Harbor freight has a “camber” gauge for a couple of bucks as well, has a “bubble” level with degrees on it. Can be used to measure camber.

[EF You]

i have an 88 civic STD. theres nothing in the engine bay at all right now. im using 90-91 knuckles without ABS. and as far as checking the camber to give you some degrees, ill have to wait until i put the motor in. it wouldnt be very accurate with a completely stripped car. im going to do an alignment on it as soon as the car is driveable, so ill give you my before and after specs, both at stock ride height and at a 3 inch drop. it should give you a clue.

and about leaving my camber kit on, the kit was funky cheap, and in another thread about camber kits i explained why i didnt wanna keep using it. one of the studs broke on it, and at maximum adjustment my upper control arm hits the frame rail.

[Alan Wil]

Originally Posted by incucivic

i have an 88 civic STD. theres nothing in the engine bay at all right now. im using 90-91 knuckles without ABS. and as far as checking the camber to give you some degrees, ill have to wait until i put the motor in. it wouldnt be very accurate with a completely stripped car. im going to do an alignment on it as soon as the car is driveable, so ill give you my before and after specs, both at stock ride height and at a 3 inch drop. it should give you a clue.

and about leaving my camber kit on, the kit was funky cheap, and in another thread about camber kits i explained why i didnt wanna keep using it. one of the studs broke on it, and at maximum adjustment my upper control arm hits the frame rail.

Mike, Thanks for the addtional info.

Your going to drop the car 3 inches? You do realize that's not going to leave you with hardly any suspension travel, Plus it will cause tons of BUMP-STEER. and cause bottoming problems as well.


On the camber kit... I'd trash it too if one on the bolts broke. So far as the upper control arm hit the fram rail.. Not much you can do about that besides clearance the rail so it doesn't hit.

[sastanley]

I've also heard the Integra "big brake upgrade" will help solve camber problems on a dropped Civic...I am still trying to get the rear brakes off an Integra for just the rear-disc swap when I have my car off the road, but a 4-corner upgrade may be nice if/when I decide to lower my ride a li'l

[EF You]

well i did clearance it, but like i said, the studs broke so i trashed the kit. and the three inch drop wont be everyday, only at car shows and when im out cruising the lakefront here in NOLA

[Alan Wil]

Originally Posted by sastanley

I've also heard the Integra "big brake upgrade" will help solve camber problems on a dropped Civic...I am still trying to get the rear brakes off an Integra for just the rear-disc swap when I have my car off the road, but a 4-corner upgrade may be nice if/when I decide to lower my ride a li'l

Originally Posted by sastanley

I've also heard the Integra "big brake upgrade" will help solve camber problems on a dropped Civic...I am still trying to get the rear brakes off an Integra for just the rear-disc swap when I have my car off the road, but a 4-corner upgrade may be nice if/when I decide to lower my ride a li'l

Got any particulars? What I am running into is some people say it will work (and correct negative camber) Others say it won’t.


Brian Gillespie from Hasport e-mailed me and said it would work). Saying just to get it aligned afterwards.

Another guy at Hasport that was asked by Moderator LadyNRedSi ‘s husband (Jer) and was told it would NOT work. (Trying now to find out who Jer talked to)

[Alan Wil]

Originally Posted by KoRnSaQ

personaly i would keep the camber kit because my friends crx has a b18 in it, with teg knuckles and it is owered about 3 1/2 in. and he had to have the camber kit to get it lining up right

KoRnSaQ,

Can you please put me in touch with your "friend". I like to hear from him /her? firsthand what the before /after specs were. What camber kit he is using, etc. What had to be done.


How the swap affected CASTER.... And bumpsteer.

[Alan Wil]

Originally Posted by KoRnSaQ

personaly i would keep the camber kit because my friends crx has a b18 in it, with teg knuckles and it is owered about 3 1/2 in. and he had to have the camber kit to get it lining up right

KoRnSaQ,

Just sent you an e-mail but it came back (Your hotmail account)
Requested action not taken:
mailbox unavailable


Guess I'll PM you.

[Alan Wil]

RE: Using 91 Integra LS Steering knuckles on 90 Civic DX.
Confirmation of alignment settings.
Printout of alignment settings.




I’ve talked with a few guys here that have swapped Integra knuckles onto a Civic and had their cars aligned, but no one it seems has gotten a printout of the final alignment settings… ?????

One guy was very unhappy with his car after the swap, but I believe he may have bent suspension pieces as he said the caster was different from side to side by a large amount, and the right wheel was closer to the foot well on the passenger side that the drivers.

I suggested to him that he go by and get a FREE, FREE, FREE alignment “check”, but have not heard back from him with the results.

If he could that would not only help him, but the data he posts could help others that are trying to do the same swap by providing others with HARD data… DATA that says for example that the Integra parts change camber by 1.95 degrees positive, and it changes caster by 1.25 negative… or such. If you knew those numbers it would be easy to figure out if the car could be aligned properly.

Another guy said when the alignment was done was told by the alignment guy everything was “ok”…. But had no figures. ???


My experience with alignment guys is most of then don’t like screwing around with lowered cars OR cars that have aftermarket camber kits, etc anyways and will say everything is “fine” just to get the car off their alignment machine ASAP so they can get back to just adjusting “toe-in” as on most cars these days the only thing adjustable is toe.

Alignment guys usably don’t like cars that have fully adjustable camber /caster, etc as it makes their job much harder. If the car cannot be aligned within a short period of time they try to make the car go away.


Some that have done the swap have said the car does not “feel” the same…. This to me indicates caster is off. (Out of spec). Or the height of the knuckle itself is taller or shorter than the Civic knuckle which would throw off steering geometry as the upper to lower control arms are not is the same plane to each other after the swap.


Anyone got a printout of his or her alignment settings after the swap? Or better yet a BEFORE and AFTER printout?


Anyone game for a FREE alignment check that has done this swap?

[amy@af]

Originally Posted by Alan Wil

Another guy at Hasport that was asked by Moderator LadyNRedSi ‘s husband (Jer) and was told it would NOT work. (Trying now to find out who Jer talked to)

he has no idea who he talked to. to add to that, dropshop says he told me he the caster will be off and the car can never be aligned. says he did it and ran thru tires

[Alan Wil]

Originally Posted by LadyNRedSi

he has no idea who he talked to. to add to that, dropshop says he told me he the caster will be off and the car can never be aligned. says he did it and ran thru tires

Hi Ami,

Yes…. As we talked about via-e-mail Jer did not know to whom he talked to at Hasport that said it would not work.

But Brian Gillespie of Hasport said it would work. Said the alignment shop had NO problem getting the car aligned, etc.


So far as Dropshop... Is that another user here, Or is it a place that specializes in modifying Hondas? (I would assume it is another user here. Either way do you have any contact info for Dropshop?)

Does he/she/they have any hard data? Meaning does he have a printout of how far the alignment was out once the parts were swapped?
Before /after?


I’m confused as "others" here say it will work just fine.


It may be a case of which in DropShop had his car done by an alignment guy that either didn’t know what he was doing, or didn’t want to take the time to do what needed to be done. As I wrote before most alignment shops want to get you in, and get you OUT real quick… (Adjust toe-in only, and call it done)


So far as him going thru tires.. If Caster were off it should not cause the tires to wear out faster… Camber or Toe yes, but caster should not affect wear. Too little caster would cause the car to feel unstable, wander, etc, but wouldn’t eat tires like improper camber or toe does.