why CIVICS? non-biased opinions please

[Parsalian05]

So I'm nearing the point where I can afford my own car, and after much research on different cars, I ask you: Why do so many choose to race civics, small economy cars (no offence intended!)?

I understand civics are small, lightweight, have efficient engines (vtec) and also have a huge modification parts market. People seem to put THOUSANDS of dollars into these little cars, (don't get me wrong here, civics can haul ass with the right engine and mods) but why not save that extra 3-4k you spend on mods + the cost of the civic itself and buy something a little better base?

Before I did some research on civics, I had been looking at late 80's to early 90's acura legends. They start with a 3.1L v6, which has 200 hp! Even the 2.7L version has 160 base HP. There are, of course, down sides to legends, such as the fact they weigh more (being luxury cars), they have strictly SOHC headers (as far as I know you can't upgrade to DOHC) and have very few after market parts available, but there are SOME. So, 200hp + CIA + turbo + performance header on a legend... Personally, that doesn't sound too terrible... Personally.

Don't get the idea I worship legends or anything, this is just an example that popped into my head and my ignorant logic couldn't find much of an argument for it.

THEN there's all this talk of H23A and H22A swaps... why not just BUY a prelude? Preludes don't weigh that much more than civics and mods/parts aren't all that hard to find. Personally, I would prefer a 4th gen lude over a civic in most cases, anyway.

There's also the other aspect of originality, Civic drivers tend to get a bad rap from the general public (who usually don't know sh*t about cars, or imports for that matter) who jump on the "damn ricer!" bandwagon.

Well that's all I got for my civic rant as of now... Please feel free to comment and/or persuade me to buy a civic. Also, civic info/comparison sites would be awesome!

THANKS,
Par

[B16EJ1]

First off, you can take the Legend talk and throw that crap out the window. Sheer numbers do not make the Civic great. Take your turbo charged Legend and give me a semi built B18C Spec R hatch and I'll have you trading in your Legend for a Civic in no time flat on the strip and most definitly on the track. The Legend is a brick and not worth the cash.

Oh and the Prelude thing.......let me just say, buy your Prelude and see how many Civic's out there can hand you your ass. The Lude is a great car but the Civic has much more possibilities. Your post alone tells me that you have done some homework but not enough. Study up.

[Parsalian05]

please, teach me o' jedi master

heheh seriously though, I do appreciate your input, know any sites that give general 1/4 mile times of different car makes?

thanks

[boosted331]

prelude = 3000+ pounds
civics = most around 2300. That's why you don't buy a prelude. Civics are dirt cheap, I drive mine year round, insurance is cheap, gas is cheap when you're not getting on it, and as long as it isn't riced out cops don't look twice at you.

[Milliardo]

I think it's the sheer enjoyment of seeing something that is underpowered transformed into something that can actually challenge bigger cars. Take the PH16, a variant of the D16 there in the U.S.: it is 125hp stock, is non-VTEC (at least the 93 Civic ESi which is my car), but when modded right can take on the B16'd stock Civic SiR. And of course, needless to say, any car in-between the 93 ESi and the SiR. Put turbo on it, and the PH16 can get past an all N/A B16, and if the driver is good, can even challenge a turboed B16. So that's why we enjoy seeing our cars built up. We can probably buy those Mitsu Galant with the V6, or the Nissan Cefiro also with the V6 (where I am, aside from the BMW, these are the top cars), but we like to work on our Civics and take on these cars (you guys in the U.S. can even take the Civic further and actually take on an Evo, but that would mean an engine swap and proper tuning and modification).

[eckoman_pdx]

Okay, first off, those HP numbers you get for stock cars from the articles and manufacter's specs are usually at the flywheel. That being said, 200 flywheel HP is not 200 wheel hp. Okay now, weight is a big factor. It's why some choose to put an H22 into a civic instead of buying a 3000+ lbs prelude (I don't currently have the excact weight near me). Take an 92-95 civic, dirt cheap, 2300lbs. Add 180lbs to the cars weight for the H22. Okay now, thats the same HP, at 500+ less pounds to pull. Thats a lot less weight. Don't beilive me? Put 3 people (including you driving) in the car and floor it, not as quick as when you drive alone, is it? It's the extra weight. The power of the H22 (just using this engine example cuz you used it) really moves the civic, a much much lighter car. It's the same reason those little crotch rocket bikes are so damn fast....130hp....but damn they are light, like 800 lbs. It's the power/weight ratio. The same HP will be faster in a lighter car than the heavier one. Civic's are very light (especially the crx). Now, put in a prelude H22 or integra B18, and those motor's haul ass in the much lighter civic chassis. Now the legand weights like a brick compared to the civic, i know at least 3200 lbs. Thats at least 900 lbs more than a stock civic. Now, lets say you have that H22 you mentioned in your 93 hatch. The legend, in the 3.1 liter form, is 200hp flywheel, 3200 lbs or more. The Civic, with the highest output H22A in it, 220hp, is only about a 2480lbs curb weight after the swap is done. 700 lbs lighter at least, more flywheel HP, and more wheel hp. You also possess much greater tuning and turbo options, as this is only the starting point. This "starting point" will spank that legend, and if you take it further, it will do a hell of a lot more than that. So lets review. Legand = 200 flywheel HP, 3200 lbs curb weight; Civic with H22A swap = 220 flywheel HP, 2480 curb weight after swap. More horsepower, less weight. A lot less, the legend possess a power/weight ratio of 16:1, the h22 civic of 11.2:1. The civic not only has more power, but the fact it has so much less weight to pull around will mulitply the effects even more. There's more to a fast car that HP ouput, weight is important, lighter = better, why do you think those bikes are so damn fast. Read up above; I'll take the civic over that legend any day.

[CivicSiRacer]

Why do people choose Civics? Hrm why do people buy any car? It's most of the time preferance, other times it's because everyone in the world talks about Honda Civics

They are readily available since they were mass produced, so now you can get a 1995 Civic pretty cheap as opposed to a 1995 Integra. Plus as you mentioned the aftermarket has swamped the scene with so many parts that you can get an intake for dirt cheap compared to an intake for a VW or Acura.

I originally purchased my Civic because my Toyota Corolla was totalled and the used car dealership had a great price on the Civic. Once I purchased that Civic I've been real happy with my 2nd and 3rd Civic. I really didn't get started into racing until about 7 years ago and found that parts DO come cheap and easy to find.

Now granted not many people on these boards autocross or road race their Civics (and if they do they don't talk much), but I enjoy the competition of running my Civic especially when people in higher horsepower cars say "You race that thing?" and I come back and post faster times than them.

I once showed up to a Corvette autocross and everyone was pointing and making fun of the Civic that showed up to their event. Then I posted a run that was 2 seconds faster than the fastest Corvette. After that people thought I had a turbo kit, NOS, or supercharger - hated to tell them I was NA They basically shutup after that

[Miataracer]

there was a day when I never expected to have a civic either... then I got sick of driving a Miata at college and started looking for something more practical. enter civic: I bought it for $2,000, never looked back. i love this car!

[kidrocket]

for me, its about doing more with less. i like walking on 5.0 mustangs that have motors about 3 times the size of my motor...

[dredinyonkers]

i used to have a few cars a gti.. i loved it.
then a corrado... i really loved that one...
a fx.. 16 valve... you already knoe..
then i bought a crx.. it was a 90....
wow.. that lil thing flew...and handled...
then i started with the mods....
never looked back.. honda is the shiznit...lol
now i'm pushing a 92 cx....for now.. it will be gutted out over the winter.... see you all on the highway....
why civic... drive a hatch with a b-16 on it.....
you will see.......

[Parsalian05]

awesome awesome, much appreciated! Now here's your reward, you get to answer my noob questions about civics!! yay!

OK, let's say I want to buy a civic (I am feeling very inclined to, the more I learn about them!), which model is best for racing, but won't hinder my everyday driving routine? I'm thinking the 92-00 model EX or DX coupe. I'm aware the DX has very few features stock, as well as a poor engine, but I would be swapping no matter what model I get. The way I see it, the DX would be slightly lighter due to the fact it has fewer accesories (correct?).

As for engines for this generation, I need to find an engine that is cheap (around a $1000) and doesn't take considerable skill or a considerable amount of time to install - I would either have to bring it to shop and have it profesionally installed (general cost?), or I could talk to a friend who has the tools to swap engines, but isn't a profesional (this can equal many problems if i tried to install a non-civic engine, especially the h22a).

http://www.hmotorsonline.com/shop/sc...USDM%20Engines

This site has just about every engine available for the civic, it even has packages for the engine + a tranny and ECU. Let's say I got the B16A 92-00 (SiR-II) Long Block(4th page I think), would this fit any 92-00 civic? Also, does the fact that these are JDM USDM engines affect anything? What EXACTLY does JDM USDM mean? - If anyone could give me some info about a good, cheap but good swap and give extensive info about it, I would love them forever.

just thought I'd inform you guys I test drove a 96' civic DX, manual, a few days ago. It's $4500 (I can probably get it a bit cheaper) it has 140k KILOMETERS (about 80k miles), a decent after market cd player (i have to have music) and the body/current engine are perfect. The price is probably cheaper because this honda is being sold at a VW lot and its from canada (speedometer is in kilometers heheh).

thanks,
par

[eckoman_pdx]

Shit, I typed this once and got booted, so here I go again. Okay dude, first off, a part can't be JDM & USDM. The site ment that they carry both USDM & JDM parts. They list next to the parts in parenthises JDM or USDM to tell you which it is. Now what do JDM and USDM mean? Well, JDM means Japanese Domestic Market. This means the part was orignally sold as new on the japanese domestic market. It's a part sold origanlly as new in japan. It's a part from a car in japan (or if brand new, sold in japan). USDM means United States Domestic Market. This means the part was sold origanlly as new in the United States. It's a part from a US car (or if brand new, sold in the US). This simply denotes where the part orignated from. The JDM motors will fit in your USDM civic, as will the USDM motors. In some motors, like the B18C (jdm) and B18C1 (usdm), the JDM varient possess a little more HP. This is also true for the later B16A's (jdm) vs the B16A2/3 (USDM). Either way, JDM or USDM, they will both fit. LIke I said, that just tells you where the motor's from. Now that we cleared that up, you seem to be concerned with weight. You want to trim level that weights the least (DX, LX, etc). Okay, I know for the 92-95 civics, the Hatchback is the lightest, the Sedan is 2nd, and the Coupe is the heavist. They are all light, but the coupe is about 100 lbs heavier, give or take. I am not postive if this hold true for 96-00, but I know the hatch for those years is the lighest too. As for trim level, well, yes, less options usually = a little less weight. As for shop labor to install, I have seen prices from $400-$1000. I have seen $600 a reasonable price for an install. Just make sure they know what they are doing. I have seen some really crappy installs. Motor mounted crooked, etc. It's not super hard if you know what your doing though, so don't worry. Just look around, you should be fine. As for weather your friend can do it, I don't know his level of skill in the automotive field and with honda's, so I can't tell you. But if he knows how and will do it, it may save you some $$. Also, you are going to find a complete swap for $1000 unless you are lucky. I have heard of such things, but it's not commen at all. You more likely are looking at $1500-$2500 for the parts, depending on motor type, year, etc. As for motors, any B-series motor will fit. You aren't limited to just the B16A. You can also put in the integra motors (B18B1 and B18C1). You'll need the drive axels too, as the civic has unequal length axels and the integra ones will make sure it's proper for the swap. Which motor to get depends on your goals. If you want to keep the price down, B16A is usually cheaper than a B18C1, although I have heard of time this was not true when someone got a great line on a GSR motor (B18C1). The LS motor can be inexpensive, and is by far the best motor for forced induction (FI) apps. You can turbo the other motors, but there are serveal things that make the LS (B18B1) better suited for FI apps. For starters, the LS can handle 12 psi on stock internals when tuned right. Also, the lower comperssion ratio is better for turbo apps. The LS can make upwards of 250-275 Wheel HP (WHP) boosted to 12psi on stock internals when tuned correct. It's not the choice motor for N/A apps. Either way, my adive is weighyour goals and fincances and get what suits you best. Also, if you are just dumping the stock motor anyway, you might be able to cut the cost by getting a car in decent condtion with a dying motor. If you are just junking the motor anyway, you don't need to look for a pristene motor, since you are getting a new one.

[jcrx]

Why would you base a question on something as lame as the Legend? Look at the figures that got you thinking, 3.1L V6 at what 200hp, gay, try thinking Euro Accord 2.2L 220Hp, in a civic that weights 1000lbs less. Oh yeaaa.

[Sean Price]

now where does a 2000 Honda civic ex sedan fit in all this?

i.e. how can I make it "fast" nah not fast, faster....


furthermore its automatic, i see so there's nothing I can do?

let me know

thanks

[Parsalian05]

thanks eckoman, cleared up a lot of questions (btw I knew what JDM and USDM stood for, i just didnt know if they were both compatible). I still have a question about them though, will the stock ECU in the dx (or any 92-00 model) be compatible with a JDM motor?

random noob question = what is the difference between short and long blocks?

and jcrx, why don't you expand on your idea there, I'm still confused. do you mean to put a euro accord engine into a civic???

keep the comments coming! chances are youre not just helping me by replying

THANKS,
par