question wanting to lower car

[omarjamil]

aight so i got my integra GSR, and now i want to lower my car, and i dont know where to start because people are talking about coilovers, and springs, struts, and all taht stuff and i dont understand dem.
well i think i know that springs are for lowering ur car, but do i need to get anything with the springs? and for coilover sets, well do they just set the springs for soft or hard? or do they actually affect the ride height, THANKYOU COME AGAIN

[config]

Coilovers, [despite what many people on this forum may say], are not meant for a daily driver, or even a casual enthusiast. They are for the track, and are adjustable for a reason.

So, with that said, if you want to drop your car, your gonna have to get new springs and shocks. Its gonna run you up around $800. My recomendation is some H&R Sports or Eibach's, and some Koni Yellows.

[loesch8102]

Why do you say that coil-overs are not for a daily driver? Did you read this in an article or from first hand experience? I'm not trying to be rude, I was just under the impression that true coilovers such as H&R and Tein are a big step up from lowering springs due to the adjustability and the perfectly matched Spring / Struts.

[SilverY2KCivic]

Originally posted by config
Coilovers, [despite what many people on this forum may say], are not meant for a daily driver, or even a casual enthusiast. They are for the track, and are adjustable for a reason.

So, with that said, if you want to drop your car, your gonna have to get new springs and shocks. Its gonna run you up around $800. My recomendation is some H&R Sports or Eibach's, and some Koni Yellows.

Actually that's not true.

Most true coilover companies (Tein, A'PEXi, JIC, etc...) make different model units for different kinds of driving. Tein themselves make OVER a dozen different units, each one for a different style of driving. They have everything from DAILY DRIVER models (Basic Dampener and SS) all the way to full on track day and rally race systems (HT, RA, RS and N1). True coils will also give you a better ride hands down than any seperate spring/sleeve type coilover and shock setup. If you don't believe me, think of it this way, if Eibach and Neuspeed both make differnent types of springs for different types of driving (daily or drag) then why do you think that Tein makes so many different models. Also keep in mind that Tein SS isn't actually meant for track driving, but occasional track times if you decide to so, that further supports why what you said isn't at all true.

Read up on it and you'll find out why what I'm saying is true. Don't go by what you think you know about it, I speak from experience, as I OWN a set of Tein SS myself. And I can absolutely tell you by far it's the BEST investment I've ever made in a mod to my car.

[BullShifter]

Like SilverY2k said, there are different models - street-street/strip-street/track(road racing)-full race. Coilovers are a waste if you dont know how to adjust them properly. A good set of coilver will have fully adjustable ride height(couple inches) & fully adjusable struts/shocks. You can set it however you please, there 1,000's of fine adjustments that can be made. Do you really need for street driving? IMO NO

Do your research & learn as much about the suspension & how it works before you go dumping all that money. Dont learn the hard, you dont want to replace those parts in a few months because you tried to be cheap & got a shit ass ride with shitty handling.

With springs you'll need good shocks & a possible camber kit depending how low you go.

Coilvers you will need a camber kit depending how low you plan to lower the car. Alignment after each ride height adjustment is recommended.

To get the most out of it you'll want good tires & atleast a larger rear sway bar, then worry about the strut braces.

Stay away from wanna-be coilover - the sleeve springs are no good!

[config]

Fully-Adjustable Coilover Suspension for the street? You sure you wanna do that?

Are you committed to buying an adjustable coil-over suspension for the car? An adjustable coil-over suspension on a street car is a poor idea and can hurt the handling of the car. Allow me to explain.

The whole purpose of a fully-adjustable coil-over suspension (FACOS - not an industry
term) is, as expected, adjustability (do you know that you already have coilover
suspension, stock?) However, with that adjustability is a LOT of setup requirements. If
you don't setup the suspension properly, you are almost guaranteed to make your car
handle worse than stock. It might ride stiffer, and look lower, but it won't handle better.
See, the FACOS give you not only the ability to adjust ride height, but corner weights
as well. If the corner weight is not set correctly then you end up with cross-weight all
out of whack and the car's handling becomes unpredictable.

Think of corner weights this way: you take a four-legged stool with all legs the same
length. When you sit on that chair, all four legs are touching the ground evenly, pushing
down onto the ground evenly, if you will, and the chair doesn't rock. If you were to
place scales under each leg you would find that with your weight perfectly balanced in
the center of the chair all four scales would read equally. Lean one way or another and
you'll find that the weight will be shifting from scale to scale but the chair will continue
to be steady and not rock. The reason is because of one unique thing: the sum of the
opposing corners will always equal each other. In other words, the LF plus the RR
weight will always equal the RF plus the LR weight.

But, suppose you slightly trim one chair leg, say 1/16". Now, the chair is going to rock
slightly, because more of the weight is being held by the opposing corner legs. In fact,
if you're good at balancing, then 100% of the weight will only be on two legs, while the
other two legs aren't even touching the ground. The LF+RR weight will be LESS than the
RF+LR weight.

This is the idea behind corner weights on a car. FACOS is adjustable not just for ride
height (different length springs will do the same thing); the goal is to adjust each spring
independently so that the cross weights are identical. You'll still have more weight in
the sum of the fronts versus the sum of the rears (and you can adjust that to a degree
with spring rates), but when the sum of the cross weights are equal the car will handle
the same left to right and will be MUCH more predictable.

If, for instance, you have too much weight LF/RR than RF/LR, the car will turn in nice
and sharp to the right, but will understeer in transit through the corner, and probably
during exit. To the left the car will lean over more, transfer a lot of weight during the
turn in, and then probably oversteer through the corner. It won't be fun to drive either
way, and you'll be scratching your head trying to figure out why it's an evil-handling
car.

To set up a car properly with a FACOS, you:

- install your suspension and set the spring perches about where you figure you'll need
them for ride height, and equal all around.

- put the car on the ground and test ride height. Ride height is set to either race prep
rules (minimum ride height) or to the lowest you can for the conditions. Those
"conditions" are either external limitations (don't want the exhaust or spoiler to drag the
ground) or internal (wheel clearance or bump stops.) That ride height also has to be
adjusted based by testing to determine that you have enough suspension travel and the
suspension doesn't bottom out; if you bottom out the suspension you're making your
"spring rate" go infinite and you've just wasted all your money on an adjustable
suspension. Also, don't forget the ride height is adjustable front and rear, left and right.

- After the ride height is set then the car needs to be aligned to spec. That "spec" is
either to the factory limits (which you will likely never be able to obtain with a lowered
car) or to values based on track testing, tire pyrometer temperatures, tire pressure
results, and driver feedback.

- Once the ride height and alignment is set, then the car needs to be placed on four
independent scales. These scales will give you the corner weights that you need to
know to set the suspension properly. The nifty versions of the scales are digital and
radio-transmitted, and give you a display box you can take with you around the car
while the car is on a lift on the scales and you adjust the suspension with another
display that does the math for you (about $2000 minimum for ones like that). What you
want to do is adjust each spring perch independently so that the sums of the
cross-weights match. If a corner is low, you extend the spring perch (chair leg) to put
more weight on that corner. Of course, that will then affect all 3 other corners, so you
have to go around and around until you get the numbers you want.

Of course, this is all assuming that you're running the springs you want, because a
change in the spring rate will cause height to change and all those adjustments to go
out the window...

- once you've made all the corner weights perfect, you have to go back and check the
ride height, because it's quite possible that all the corner weight adjustment has
changed the ride height. If so, start all over again. Don't settle on "good enough"; the
whole point of getting FACOS is to get it RIGHT, right?

Then, once it's all set, it's time to go to the race track. Start on the skidpad and check
handling. Slight changes in alignment and ride height will help you here (with associated
updates to corner weights), but if you need to change front-to-rear bias for better
handling you have to change springs (but, of course, one of the big advantages to
FACOS is that it uses standard springs - you get to pick-and-choose your spring rates
for each end.) Change the springs, start from the top, Maestro! You can also tune the
corner-weights for a particular race track, like Lime Rock which is all right turns save
one; of course that will make it suck on the street where you're going to be
hard-pressed to find only right-hand turns...

You asked if the springs can be installed for $200? Dude, you can't even properly align
and setup the car with the springs INSTALLED for $200!!!

Whew! Have I gotten my point across?

My friend has FACOS on his little Nissan race car, but have a $1200 set of scales. We'll
spend an entire day on initial suspension setup, and constantly twiddle with it at the
track.

I would NEVER install FACOS on my street car. The ironic part is that any "tuner" worth
his salt has gone through all the above with an adjustable suspension, tested it to
perfection of spring rates, travel, and ride height and alignment, and then took those
specs and developed a comparable off-the-shelf replacement spring to give you
something probably DAMN close to what you're gonna end up with on a FACOS. It just
makes no sense to have all that adjustability, ESPECIALLY considering that when you
finally get it set up you'll likely NEVER change it! Because if you do, you've got to start
all over from the top. Kinda silly to have that adjustability when it ain't ever gonna be
adjusted...

Installing a fully-adjustable coil-over suspension on a car without properly setting it up
is either posin' or pissin' in the wind. It may look nice in your sigline, but you're actually
hurting the car's handling.

As an alternative, consider the costs of finding a top-notch set of adjustable shocks
and aftermarket springs, and paying someone to swap out the springs twice a year like
you would for snow tires. You'll pay a bit annually in labor, but you'll be using a proven
solution that anyone with an alignment rack can deal with.

There's nothing better than actually
riding in or driving a car that has a spring/shock candidate. Don't take others' words for
it, try it yourself and decide what your compromise is.

And it will be a compromise. "The Ultimate" for the track will be unacceptable for going
to work, while a sportier suspension will give you a better handling car without leaving
most of your undercoating on the parking lot speed bump or requiring monthly dental
visits.

I just thought of something else you really should do with FACOS: have adjustable-end
swaybars. In racing, swaybars are a tuning device, not a suspension device; you size
the suspension springs to give you the weight balance and anti-roll that you want,
THEN you apply swaybars to tune the balance of the car.

If the bars are attached during the suspension setup phase, then a bar may have a load
(or "torsion") applied to it, screwing up your actual cross-weights (one end of the bar
will lift a wheel, while the other end is pushing down). AFTER the car is set up you
install swaybars with adjustable Heim-joint end to install it with no preload at all. If you
don't have adjustable end bars, you'll have to force one end into place, preloading it,
and screwing up all the work you just did.

For the street, bars are a nice compromise. Since street cars need to have a
somewhat-compliant ride, swaybars are a way to make the car "feel" like it has stiffer
springs on the outside corner of a turn. When a car rolls, the inside wheel drops relative
to the car, pulling down on the bar which pulls down on the outside tire, forcing it into
the pavement. It "thinks" it has a stiffer spring. Of course, if you lift the inside wheel off
the ground then you've reached the limit of the bar's capability and it doesn't work any
harder.

Lots of things to think about. I'd like to think the off-the-shelf "tuners" have put that
much thought into their products.

[config]

If you read that fully, you cant deny that for the most part, coilovers arn't for the "mainstream" honda driver. However, SilverY2KCivic is one of the most knowledgable and helpful people i've seen on this forum, so now i am thinking twice about getting true coilovers.

[config]

"There is no use paying for something like Tein coilovers when you wont use them.

Coilovers are good for competitive purposes, or if youre ultra ultra ultra anal about ride stiffness and demand something specific to your tastes. Even then, a good spring/shock combo will be fine, people would rather just spend more money on something that is more impressive to list as a modification I guess.

If you dont need adjustability in terms of height, which I dont think most people do, then sleeve coilovers and true coilovers are out. Pick a good spring that will give you what youre looking for in terms of spring rate and ride height.

In terms of shocks, if you dont need to adjust the ride, then a simple Tokico Blue, KYB GR2, etc NA shock will be fine for you. This is the cheapest route and usually the most effective for what people need. Its the difference between spending $450 and $800-$1000. For the most part, the same thing people use their nice GC/Koni setups for JDM Bling Tein SS' for can be accomplished with the proper spring/shock setup."

Another good point i read today.

[SilverY2KCivic]

Quite a mouthful there, but a great post none-the-less, Config. You did hit the nail on the head what the main purpose for a FACOS is, about the corner weight subject. I will have to disagree on a few points though.

One that buys a FACOS and does NOT adjust it ever, is indeed wasting their money. I on the otherhand feel I am getting my moneys worth out of mine. I'm constantly adjusting the shock dampening level of my Teins depending on if I'm just daily driving (which it what I usually have them set to) or if I hit up my local fav. mountain pass, then I'll pull over, and adjust them accordingly to that, and then when I auto-X my car (yes my daily driver is also my track racer, and I don't think I could do it without having FACOS) I will usually adjust them to the stiffest setting. I haven't really height adjusted them, although I did need to for the rears when I got my new tires I purchased several weeks ago. Since they were a size wider (195 --> 205 width) I had to raise the rear up about 1/4 of an inch for added tire clearance. I DO plan on getting corner weighted soon here though. Even not corner weighted yet, my car feels VERY well balanced. Even more so that a close friend of mine whom also has a 6th generation Civic coupe, but rides on Neuspeed sport springs, over Koni Yellows. Our rides feel quite similar in comfort, but I don't feel it has the same performance on the curves as mine. His almost feels too stiff at times as well, and that's on the middle of the 5 level dampening adjustment the Yellows have built into them.

IMO, straight up lowering springs won't properly weight your car either, just as equally heighted FACOS won't. Here's why... Honda themselves has put out a bulletin stating that '96 and newer Hondas naturally lean to the driver's side. This is due to more weight of the car being there, esp. when the driver is in the seat. Already the cross weight of the car is WAY off because of this. Lowering springs (Eibach, Neuspeed, Intrax, etc...) will indeed lower the car, but the natural lean will still exist. Hell, it did initially with my Teins till I adjusted them to squeeze some of that lean out. Cross weighting for those unfamiliar, weights the car so that the weight of each diagonal corner set equals the weight of the opposite diagonal corner set. Basically the right front + left rear should equal the left front + right rear in weight. This is all done WITH the driver in the car and about a half tank of gas, since adding the driver after the fact will throw the weight, hence why it's done with the driver in the car, so the weight is perfect when you are driving down the road. SS mag a couple months ago had a great article on adjustable coulovers and corner weighting, though they used sleeves, or was it the Tokico threaded shock bodies? Ack, I'm too lazy to look it up right now, LOL!

I wouldn't go as far as to say not properly adjusted FACOS hurt handling, but rather you aren't getting the fullest potential of your car's handling out of them. They won't hurt handling compared to stock suspension, or even some average lowering springs and Tokico blues. Also keep in mind when doing suspension, even if not for handling, but just the look of being slammed, springs aren't as much of a concern as the shocks are. Springs won't blow on you, shocks will. Tokico blues I'd recommend for sleeve coils if you don't go OVER "1.5 drop, or if you get like Eibach Pro Kit which only lowers the car minimally. You absolutely don't want to use them if handling and performance are what you have in mind. Tokico Illumina shocks really aren't recommended for lowered cars either, as they aren't warantied for anything more than "1 drop in the suspension. Best bets for lowering is KYB AGX, or better yet Koni Yellows, or at least Reds. Koni DOES warranty their shocks even when lowered, but within a resonable level. Also the nice thing about Koni, is you can have them valved to your preferance, or based on the rates of the springs used with them. They Do carry their price though, on average, a set will run $600 roughly. Give or take $50-$100 on that figure though. That's why I went with my Tein. For the same price (maybe $100 more at best) they gave me a much more comfortable ride, more adjustability options, everything is properly matched to eachother (shock valving matched to spring rates as they do with ALL of their FACOS) and it'll handle occasional track sessions with ease. Plus I can send them to Tein at anytime to have them adjusted (revalved or stiffer springs) if I ever have the desire to do so.

[whiteracer]

oh jeez that was a lot to read. I got my car and the only stuff it had done to it were a sub and lowering springs. Not know much about them, i found out that they used to be green (so much dirt on them now) and they were Neuspeed. Up to about a month ago i figured they were good enough. I just got a header, intake and exhaust in and wasn't too concerned about suspension, maybe just a rear swaybar. This post has just set me over the top and i now have a solution to what my next mod is going to be. This has got to be the longest yet most detailed thread i have ever read.

[SilverY2KCivic]

It's good stuff though. Sounds like you have Neuspeed sports. Pretty good lowering springs. I'd get those 2nd after Eibach Pro Kit if I went the straight spring route. I'd keep them if I were you and just get some Koni Yellows to go with them. That's what a buddy of mine has on his '98 EX coupe, Neuspeed sports with Koni Yellows.

[config]

Well, you did bring up an interesting point. I was planning on some Koni Yellows.. which do run around $600. Hmm, instead of waiting for a responce here, i'll just talk to you on AIM

[whiteracer]

but coilovers....hmmm....tempting ...but if the koni yellows are 600, and Tein SS' are 850, would it be worth it spend the extra 250? Not for me probably.

[SilverY2KCivic]

Originally posted by whiteracer
but coilovers....hmmm....tempting ...but if the koni yellows are 600, and Tein SS' are 850, would it be worth it spend the extra 250? Not for me probably.

It might be if you want the height adjustability and know you will use it. But you already have good springs, so it's a toss up in your case...

[00accord44]

Very good thread fellas. By far the most informative and flame free I've read in a long time. I have one question. I know pretty much nothing about suspension other than from school I have a 2000 Accord and do not have any plans on AutoXing in the future. When I graduate from school and have some $$$, then I'll start building a AutoX car. Anyways, all I wanna do is drop my Accord 1 inch to fill the wheel gap I have left and at the same time be able to handle all the speedhumps/bumps I encounter every friggin day at school. What to you reccomend?



BTW, I do planon pulling some performance out of this car. Working up to about a 9-12 psi Turbo in the end. Enought to give my car some balls on the highway. Just workin on bringin in the cash is the hard part