Team orders (split from the Hockenheim 2003 thread)

[ales]

Originally posted by RallyRaider

Also isn't it nice to have a team like Willimams at the front, with the potential of an actual race between teammates.

What, like we've seen in France this year?

Originally posted by RallyRaider
Not like a certain team where the finishing order is determined by contract lawyers the previous season...

What, like McLaren at the last race?

Face it, it's all good and all to slate team orders when the team has no chance to win the championship. But once a driver has a sniff at it, there will be no racing between teammates, in any team, whether team orders are illegal (like this year) or not (like last year). I'd like to see David and Kimi race for position (somewhat dubious considering the qualifying performance DC displayed today). Williams is another story, as both drivers are in with a chance, but I doubt that they will race eachother too hard - Williams want the constructors' title. But we'll see.

P.S. I've never found anything wrong with team orders, neither do I now, and I think McLaren will be stupid not to have discussed the situation with their drivers and made it clear what was expected of both of them without the need to go over it over the radio during the race.

[RallyRaider]

Originally posted by ales
What, like we've seen in France this year?

Did somebody move over for somebody else in France? Or fake a mechanical problem? Must've missed it.

Originally posted by ales

What, like McLaren at the last race?

Must've missed that one too. You're just trying to take the proverbial aren't you Alex?

Originally posted by ales

Face it, it's all good and all to slate team orders when the team has no chance to win the championship. But once a driver has a sniff at it, there will be no racing between teammates, in any team, whether team orders are illegal (like this year) or not (like last year). I'd like to see David and Kimi race for position (somewhat dubious considering the qualifying performance DC displayed today). Williams is another story, as both drivers are in with a chance, but I doubt that they will race eachother too hard - Williams want the constructors' title. But we'll see.

P.S. I've never found anything wrong with team orders, neither do I now, and I think McLaren will be stupid not to have discussed the situation with their drivers and made it clear what was expected of both of them without the need to go over it over the radio during the race.

Nothing wrong with common sense team orders, but when one driver is decreed subservient to the greater glory of another I think it is wrong. It was wrong in the 50's with Fangio taking over other driver's cars when his broke down, it was wrong in the 70's when Peterson and Vileneuve had to finish behind Andretti and Schekter respectively. And is it most wrong with Schumacher where the most sucessful driver of all time still needs to have his team mate pull over and let him through. But this is getting OT.

[ales]

Originally posted by RallyRaider

Did somebody move over for somebody else in France? Or fake a mechanical problem? Must've missed it.

JPM gave Ralf a real fight after he Ralf exited the pits less than a second in front of JPM. I was expecting them to have a nice scrap. Never happened.

Originally posted by RallyRaider

Must've missed that one too. You're just trying to take the proverbial aren't you Alex?

You missed Coulthard letting Kimi past?

[RallyRaider]

Originally posted by ales
JPM gave Ralf a real fight after he Ralf exited the pits less than a second in front of JPM. I was expecting them to have a nice scrap. Never happened.

Just the fact you thought the possibility of a race existed between Williams teammates proves my original point. What would you have expected between Ferraris?

Originally posted by ales
You missed Coulthard letting Kimi past?

A slow team mate not contesting a faster ones pass is simply common sense and teamwork. Kimi passed cars other than Coulthard, without cooperation. Not comparable to 50% of Ferrari's 2002 compaign at all. Surely you're not suggesting such a thing?

[ales]

Originally posted by RallyRaider


A slow team mate not contesting a faster ones pass is simply common sense and teamwork. Kimi passed cars other than Coulthard, without cooperation. Not comparable to 50% of Ferrari's 2002 compaign at all. Surely you're not suggesting such a thing?

Why exactly was he slower anyway? People say he was on a different strategy and they're right. It was DC running lighter though. And yes, I am suggesting that they have an agreement that when Kimi is behind DC, DC lets him past. Whether these constitute as team orders, I don't know, need to ask the FIA, and probably get a different and/or blurry answer each week. But what I do know is that DC and Kimi will not race against each other this year.

Originally posted by RallyRaider

Just the fact you thought the possibility of a race existed between Williams teammates proves my original point. What would you have expected between Ferraris?

I wouldn't have expected this from Ferraris because it has been their philosophy for decades. As for Williams and your point, I would have agreed with you before France, but not for this race. Hope to be proven wrong, of course, nothing is as much fun as watching Patrick Head when his drivers take each other out.

On a side note, big kudos to Williams and McLaren, and of course to Michelin, for working their arses off in the off between the seasons and taking it to Ferrari and beating them thus making not-so-necessary, in retrospect, changes of positin between the teammates impossible.

[RallyRaider]

Originally posted by ales
Why exactly was he slower anyway? People say he was on a different strategy and they're right. It was DC running lighter though. And yes, I am suggesting that they have an agreement that when Kimi is behind DC, DC lets him past. Whether these constitute as team orders, I don't know, need to ask the FIA, and probably get a different and/or blurry answer each week. But what I do know is that DC and Kimi will not race against each other this year.

Kimi got past DC and a couple of others (Trulli?) just after one of the safety car periods. Kimi must have been more confident in his cold rubber. Since we are getting down to the business end of the season and Kimi is at a hopless disadvantage car wise I would hope McLaren would be putting all their eggs in the one basket right now. Anyway you cut it McLaren or Williams team orders do not deserve to be in the same dictionary as the Ferrari variety of the last few seasons. The former boil down to common sense the latter boarder on megalomainia and are largely responsible for the foolish rules we have this year.

Originally posted by ales
I wouldn't have expected this from Ferraris because it has been their philosophy for decades.

Not exactly true, Mansel never did any favours for Prost, (Nigel being a Williams man may be relevant) and you may recall Villeneuve/Pironi. I think the last 8 years has been unprecedented in Ferrari's history.

Originally posted by ales
As for Williams and your point, I would have agreed with you before France, but not for this race. Hope to be proven wrong, of course, nothing is as much fun as watching Patrick Head when his drivers take each other out.

Of course with the championship tight both Williams drivers will be under instructions to be on their best behaviour. But the outcome of the race will be decided tomorrow. If it were an all red front row the outcome would have already been determined. Team orders 'banned' or not.

Originally posted by ales
On a side note, big kudos to Williams and McLaren, and of course to Michelin, for working their arses off in the off between the seasons and taking it to Ferrari and beating them thus making not-so-necessary, in retrospect, changes of positin between the teammates impossible.

Sounds like you have a lot of faith in the red team to abide by the letter of the law

[ales]

Originally posted by RallyRaider
Kimi got past DC and a couple of others (Trulli) just after one of the safety car periods. Kimi must have been more confident in his cold rubber. Since we are getting down to the business end of the season and Kimi is at a hopless disadvantage car wise I would hope McLaren would be putting all their eggs in the one basket right now. Anyway you cut it McLaren or Williams team orders do not deserve to be in the same dictionary as the Ferrari variety of the last few seasons. The former boil down to common sense the latter boarder on megalomainia and are largely responsible for the foolish rules whe have this year.

But no one moved off the racing line and slow down for Kimi like DC did. That was my point. As for the differences between the team orders, please dont' forget that they are actually illegal this season, however sensible they seem to you or me, while they, ridiculous as they might have seemed to you, were not against the rules last year or before that. The way I see it is Ferrari expected too much from the fans and their drivers switched their positions openly and honestly, and everyone knew just what was going on. Have you seen what DC said about the passing maneuvre at Silverstone?

Originally posted by RallyRaider

Of course with the championship tight both Williams drivers will be under instructions to be on their best behaviour. But the outcome of the race will be decided tomorrow. If it were an all red front row the outcome would have already been determined. Team orders 'banned' or not.

That is true. But it is also true about McLaren though, isn't it? Had Kimi and David been on the front row and with a clear car advantage over the others, the race result would have been very clear, don't you agree? The difference is that at Williams both drivers are in with a chance (and there's a big risk that it will become the team's undoing in the long run), and I have already said that a few posts up. But both Ferrari and McLaren will make every effort that their drivers finish in the right order, I just don't understand why you singled out Ferrari.

Originally posted by RallyRaider


Sounds like you have a lot of faith in the red team to abide by the letter of the law

Has nothing to do with the law It's just the races are much closer, and usually some other cars between the Ferraris that make it impossible. Literaly

[freakray]

I missed the point of this thread, somebody fill me in

[ales]

Originally posted by freakray
I missed the point of this thread, somebody fill me in

Hockenheim 2003, you started and named it, remember? I see your point though.

[RallyRaider]

Originally posted by ales

But no one moved off the racing line and slow down for Kimi like DC did. That was my point. As for the differences between the team orders, please dont' forget that they are actually illegal this season, however sensible they seem to you or me, while they, ridiculous as they might have seemed to you, were not against the rules last year or before that. The way I see it is Ferrari expected too much from the fans and their drivers switched their positions openly and honestly, and everyone knew just what was going on. Have you seen what DC said about the passing maneuvre at Silverstone?

Naturally that is because none of the other drivers was Kimi's team mate. Coulthard has taken out his team mate before remember! I'm sure he has it burnt in his mind how Ron chastised him then and doesn't want the episode repeated. Team orders have been illegal before. Being the souls of integrity, that didn't stop Ferrari cooking up Irvine "brake problems" and other bulls*** in 1998 did it? They must think their fans are stupid or at least as totaly focused on success at all cost as the team itself is. No, I don't know what DC quote you are refering too, but I can imagine what he might have said...

Originally posted by ales

That is true. But it is also true about McLaren though, isn't it? Had Kimi and David been on the front row and with a clear car advantage over the others, the race result would have been very clear, don't you agree? The difference is that at Williams both drivers are in with a chance (and there's a big risk that it will become the team's undoing in the long run), and I have already said that a few posts up. But both Ferrari and McLaren will make every effort that their drivers finish in the right order, I just don't understand why you singled out Ferrari.

Not true at all. I disagree entirely. McLaren have been in preciesly that situation in the past and the lesser placed driver in the championship went for and was allowed to keep the win. Why did I single out Ferrari? Are you kiding? If Austria 2002 was not blatent enough for you I don't know what could be.

[RallyRaider]

Originally posted by freakray
I missed the point of this thread, somebody fill me in

Same point as any thread: To go off on a tangent as quickly as possible

[ales]

Originally posted by RallyRaider


Not true at all. I disagree entirely. McLaren have been in preciesly that situation in the past and the lesser placed driver in the championship went for and was allowed to keep the win. Why did I single out Ferrari? Are you kiding? If Austria 2002 was not blatent enough for you I don't know what could be.

Well, you have your position, and I have mine. And mine is that DC will not win a race if Kimi is right behind him. As I doubt RB will if MS is behind him.

Asutria 2002 - we're all so much wiser in retrospect, aren't we? McLaren were so dominant at the start of 98, but the 4 points that DC (for one reason or another, depending on what and who you believe) gifter to Mika came quite handy in the end, didn't they? But by the same logic the 4 points MS gifter to Irvine at Malaysia went as wasted as the 4 points he gifter Rubens in USA last year. All in retrospect though.

[RallyRaider]

Originally posted by ales


Well, you have your position, and I have mine. And mine is that DC will not win a race if Kimi is right behind him. As I doubt RB will if MS is behind him.

Asutria 2002 - we're all so much wiser in retrospect, aren't we? McLaren were so dominant at the start of 98, but the 4 points that DC (for one reason or another, depending on what and who you believe) gifter to Mika came quite handy in the end, didn't they? But by the same logic the 4 points MS gifter to Irvine at Malaysia went as wasted as the 4 points he gifter Rubens in USA last year. All in retrospect though.

I agree DC won't win another race, probably ever!

Melbourne 1998 was a very exceptional set of circumstances, one we won't discuss here for Ray's sake

Don't follow your logic I'm afraid. Mika didn't need the 4 points in the end, he beat Shumacher by over 10. Despite being gited two wins by teammates in 1999 (plus one by Coulthard debatably) Irvine still didn't have enough. Hell, he even won in a illegal car What was wasted was all the times Irvine relented to Schumacher in the first half of the season. With those few extra points he might have won the big one

Of course everything is in retrospect, until we can see into the future hindsight is all we got!

[ales]

Well, the end result does look comfortable for Mika, but had it been MS leading the championship going into the final race - who knows (97 anyone? ). What I am trying to say is that the 4 points MS got in Austria could have been vital for the championship, they weren't, and if Jean Todt had been able to see into the future, we wouldn't have witnessed what we did, but he did what seemed best to him (and me) at the time. Not pleasant, but best for the team and for the championship aspirations. I actually liked the way they did it - openly and honestly, not with a sneakily long pitstop or similar. RB being a little crybaby probably had something to do with that.

[RallyRaider]

Originally posted by ales
Well, the end result does look comfortable for Mika, but had it been MS leading the championship going into the final race - who knows (97 anyone? ). What I am trying to say is that the 4 points MS got in Austria could have been vital for the championship, they weren't, and if Jean Todt had been able to see into the future, we wouldn't have witnessed what we did, but he did what seemed best to him (and me) at the time. Not pleasant, but best for the team and for the championship aspirations. I actually liked the way they did it - openly and honestly, not with a sneakily long pitstop or similar. RB being a little crybaby probably had something to do with that.

Pure speculation with the points situation and I believe you are wrong. The past has shown that MS + last race = crack. Each and every time. Mika held it together in 1999 despite being behind in the points (thanks to the lawyers). Every reason to think he would have done the same in 1998, as indeed he did. Bridgestone had to resort to some extrodinary procedures in 2000 to make sure the last race syndrome didn't spoil things again.

Surely Ferrari weren't paranoid enough to think Schumacher needed the four extra points from Austria 2002? I suspect they were trying to achieve two things. Firstly Schumacher to have won every GP round and second to totaly crush the opposition by winning the WDC as early as possible. Have also seen some speculation that they wanted the WDC for a company float launch, that ended up not happening anyway.

Ferrari probabably didn't want it done like it happened, leaving it to the last corner was Ruben's protest. Schumacher didn't have to lie about it in the press conference afterward though.