Is my Engine Toast?

[farns]

Good morning all,

About 3 years ago (Almost to the day, actually) I did the huge isolator bolt fix on my 2002 Windstar. Cleaned out all the nasty gunk from the motor, replaced the bolts, gaskets, everything. Went ahead and did plugs and wires while I was in there. It as a huge thing for me because I don't even know how to change my own oil. But the codes went away and the van has driven nice since then.

About 2 weeks ago, CEL came back on, talking about a misfire. I didn't have time to deal with it so I gave it to my mechanic. He was reading trouble with cyclinder 5, and he went ahead and changed all the plugs and wires. They were nasty covered in oil I guess? He said there's oil in the motor and stuff.

Cylinder 5 still misfires, and sometimes when you idle it's really really rough. He feels like maybe the cylinder is going bad, and I don't know truly what that means. He's a great mechanic and a good friend, but we have a language barrier so it's difficult for me to understand what he's telling me. I don't know if this means my engine is destroyed or if there's something I can do to breathe some life back into it. Was really hoping to get one more year out of it.

We put a new transmission in it 2 years ago. This thing has been such a money pit. But I'm having a hard time giving up on it, you know?

Any thoughts on what I should look at, or do next?

Farns

[12Ounce]

Sorry you are having problems. How many miles on vehicle? Is the coolant crystal clear...or does it have an oily sheen? Do you have to add coolant? Did you use a torque wrench when you replaced the isolator bolts?

[farns]

I have not looked at the coolant - not sure how to. But I'm not aware of any issues with it. I do have to add oil between oil changes, I do know I have a problem somewhere there.

When I did the isolator bolt fix, I did follow the instructions I found here in the big sticky thread about the subject. I followed them to the letter and rented any tools I needed to do it right. This included a torque wrench. But that having been said, I don't recall exactly if I did or not. Stated another way, if the walk through said to, I did. If it did not, I probably did not.

The van has 186k miles on it.

[scubacat]

Did your mechanic do a pressure test? Open the coolant reservoir tank cap (to the left of the motor if you're standing in front) and see if you have clear coolant or if it's black and gunky. If it's dark and sludge-like, unfortunately, your lower intake gasket may have blown. That's another common failure. However, it's much less severe than a head gasket and a much easier fix.

I did mine a few years ago. Basically you do what you did before, then remove the crossover water pipe (replace it if it's original; it'll leak at the bend eventually), a bunch more vacuum lines, the heater hose, and the EGR pipe, then the 14 bolts in the lower manifold, then lift it off. You'll need to carefully clean the heads and the manifold (do NOT scratch it!) Place the new gasket, RTV the corners, drop the manifold back in, and torque the manifold bolts in two steps with your torque wrench. Then just reassemble everything you took apart. The only other caveat is that you MUST change the oil before you crank the engine since some coolant will have spilled into the crankcase when you lifted the manifold off the heads.

If you want to attempt it, I can post the service manual steps with diagrams that will help. If you did the upper plenum job, this one is a few more steps but the same procedure up to that point. I did it really slowly and it took me about 4-5 hours on a Saturday afternoon only because I spent so long cleaning the intake and heads off. (It's tricky to get the old gasket off without scratching the surfaces.)

[scubacat]

Sorry, got another question and idea:

Did you clean those little EGR ports when you did the plenum job 3 years ago? Also, did your mechanic replace the coil pack? When he says "oil in the engine", he may just mean in the intake/pcv system, and some oil in there is normal for this engine.

Check the coolant bottle like I said before, but that's probably not the cause of your misfire. With new plugs and wires, it's either the EGR ports clogged or a bad coil pack.

[farns]

Scubacat,

Thank you for the input. I will check the coolant tonight and see what I can find out. I would be interested in seeing the steps you mentioned in the procedure. The isolator bolt fix was a huge deal for me. I'm not mechanically inclined at all. In fact, I read through the walkthough over and over for like 3 weeks before deciding to try it LOL. It fully took me 3 days to do the job.

I do not know what a pressure test is, but I can ask him if he did one. What does the test reveal, and about what?

I did clean the EGR ports 3 years ago, with acetone and foam swabs if I remember correctly. They were NASTY then, I made them look pretty new. I asked him about the coil pack, and he says I don't have one. But I'm pretty sure I've replaced it before. This may be where the language barrier is causing some trouble.

So maybe I just need to look at pulling it all apart and cleaning it good again?

I enjoyed reading a thread on this forum about "what should I remove and sell before scrapping my windstar". Believe me, the thought has crossed my mind plenty. I've already looked on eBay for what parts might go for LOL.

[scubacat]

A pressure test would reveal a leak somewhere in the cooling system. It should hold about 15psi or so of pressure without dropping. If you cleaned the EGR ports out 3 years ago, they should still be fine. It takes longer than that for them to get plugged up like you saw.

I would STRONGLY advise you to first check the coil pack. You can do this yourself. Simply remove the two-piece wiper cowl cover and it is mounted on the rear (right) valve cover. It's the rectangular block that all the spark plug wires connect to. Remove it and look at the back. If you see a tiny hairline crack, that's causing your arcing and you need to replace it. This is a fairly routine, known problem with these vans and will cause your exact issues (misfires, poor idle, etc.)

Edit: Label or take note of where the spark plug wires connect on the coil pack. (Make a quick drawing or something.) They are specific and are NOT random.

[farns]

Hi there, ok quick update. I checked the coolant reservoir, and looking down into it, it seemed to look dark and sludgy. But as I swabbed it several time with foam swabs, they came out clean every time. Nice clear fluid. So I guess that's good, right? LOL

I took a look at where the coil pack is, and now I do remember replacing it, I'm like 92% sure. 3 years ago, I think? So hard to remember.

Wife called me today to say she had smoke coming out from under the hood, but she didn't know if it was smoke or steam. She pulled over, lifted the hood, didn't see anything, and hurried to finish her errands and drive home. No more signs after that.

[phil-l]

My '00 Windstar had a similar episode where it started running horribly; replacing plugs/wires/coil pack had no effect.

Took it to the dealer - who discovered a single bad fuel injector. Interesting: Yes, it was cylinder #5.

The dealer replaced the single injector (I don't recall what we paid - but I recall that I didn't think it was outrageous). It has run fine since then.

EDIT: See my later post in this thread on details from my visit to the dealer.

[farns]

Interesting. Though I shudder at the thought of taking it to a dealer, I'm giving it some thought. The timing right now is horrible. While I know I can probably do the coil pack, it would take me a few hours I'm sure. I'm so overwhelmed by other pressing needs right now, I really don't have the bandwidth. And now my wife is taking the opportunity to start shopping for new cars! UG. Do NOT want another car payment right now.

[farns]

Just watched this video, which seems to be a pretty comprehensive walkthrough on the 171/174 fix I did a few years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgHDhNzBJ8w

that brought back some memories LOL. At that time, it took me 3 days and several rented tools to get the job done, but now I'm wondering, if I could knock it out in a single saturday since I did it once before. I mean, I know I don't have to do the isolator bolts again, but I'm wondering if my EGR ports are gunky again. I am going through oil more than I should...

I just need to bite the bullet and dive into this I think - hit the coil pack first like you said, then look at the EGR ports next. I just really need some motivation to! haha

[phil-l]

Coil pack replacement isn't difficult - but the pack isn't conveniently located (trick response: *Nothing* is conveniently located under a Windstar hood), so the job tends to be time-consuming.

[farns]

Seeing that the injectors are only $40 at autozone I'm wondering if I should just replace both at the same time? Or would you still do one and then the other?

If I do the coil pack, reset the code (I have a basic reader of my own that can clear the codes), and put it back together just enough to fire it up, would a misfire code return promptly if the coil pack is not the issue?

I found a youtube video on the injectors, but it wasn't very good. Does anybody have a good walk through here on how to do that?

[12Ounce]

In two more oil changes, my '99 3.8L will have reached 400K miles... on all original fuel injectors. If you think you have injector issues ... I would rather you swap them around, keeping notes of which went where ... and see if the problem relocates.
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Very good that your coolant is clear! Very good!
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I would do a cylinder compression test and go from there. I think you can get a loaner compression gauge from AutoZone. Yes, its a little work ... but if you can't do this ... for whatever reason ... spare time, whatever ... you might want to join the little lady in car shopping!

[farns]

Oh that's a great idea - on moving the injectors.

How would I figure out which one belongs to cylinder 5? I have a haynes manual I think... but do you know off-hand which one ?

On the compression test - is that a tool you rent, or one you buy? How do you perform the test? And what will it reveal? Will it indicate that a cylinder has indeed gone bad?