Steering issue

[stuart83]

Hi all,

I just had my rack and pinion and steering pump replaced (leaks). I'm now having an annoying problem. I'm going to talk to the shop, of course, but I was hoping to get some insights on possible causes here so that I'll have any idea what to expect / how to evaluate what they say.

So, I have a '96 Camry. The annoying problem is that the steering now has some "give." It is hard to describe how much: it's not a ton, at least when still, as turning the wheel pretty quickly (though not immediately) moves the tires. Maybe .5-1" at most of give in this sense.

HOWEVER, when driving down the road, I now have to constantly adjust the wheel to keep going straight. It is driving me nuts. I drive a LOT, and this is going to be horrible if it cannot be fixed. I also just spent a lot of money to fix my steering system, and while it now presumably does not leak, it is behaving worse than it was before.

Is there any hope this is something simple and fixable?

Thank you very much for any insights you can give.

[gmtech1]

Sometimes reman aftermarket steering gears can cause weird issues. I have seen plenty of problems with them. If a NAPA or other aftermarket gear was installed, that maybe the problem. The other thing, was a alignment done after the repairs were completed? If not, it needs to be done.

[stuart83]

Thanks for the response. Yeah, they did an alignment, although not a great one (the "default" position of the steering wheel is not straight, as it was before).

I was afraid it might be the remanufactured part. :-/ Great. It sounds weird to say because the car more or less works fine, but this could be a huge issue for me -- I drive 16 hours in a day sometimes, and having to work to keep the car going straight all the time will not work out.

Anyway, thank you.

[gmtech1]

Take it back to repair shop and let them know the problem. Find out what type of warranty they have on their repairs. See what they can do for you.

[stuart83]

Thank you, gmtech. I did that today. They drove it and noticed the problem. They think it is the strut mounts.

Now, the strut mounts are definitely (going) bad. I had the struts changed last year (in another state), and took the car to have it aligned a week later, and already the alignment shop complained about the strut mounts being terrible. Everybody since then has too. So they are.

This shop's theory is that the strut mounts -- which they said at the time they changed the rack were noticeable stiff and causing noise (which they are) -- are keeping the steering from re-centering itself.

Does this sound feasible? I mean, I suppose I should change the mounts soon anyway, but I'm just curious if this sounds like it *might* cause this particular problem. Thank you!

[gmtech1]

Yes. It's possible that the bearings in the mounts are binding, causing your problem.

[stuart83]

Thanks again. I'm going to go ahead and have them repair those too -- it seems like a good idea in any event, and then we'll find out more.

I guess I'm a little surprised that, if it's the bearing mounts, it wouldn't have been a problem before; but then, they did say they tightened everything up, so maybe (?) it is causing that problem to be more detectable. We'll know soon!

I'll let you know. In any event, I really appreciate your help.

[stuart83]

Hi,

Well, I had them do that. It certainly helped a lot of things. Noticably, there is less vibration, and the car doesn't clank and creak whenever I steer.

Unfortunately, there is still some undesireable play in the wheel. I stopped by today (I got it back yesterday) to mention this to them, and they said to bring it by Tuesday or Wed. when that tech is there, which is fine.

On the way home, I was stopped at a light, and the steering motor started clicking. It stopped after about 3-5 seconds. This happened again at the next light. It happened more weakly a third time.

This happened the day I picked the car up after first getting the rack changed, and they said it was maybe just air in the system, since it didn't happen again since. Now that it happened again today, I'm kind of concerned. I will probably take it back by sooner than next week.

[stuart83]

Well, things seem a little stuck here.

The car has firmly developed a new symptom, not all the time, but often: when going about highway speeds, and the wheel is turned to the right for a curve, it feels noticeably tight/vibrating (not like the wheel is shaking, but like something is shaking at high frequency below and you can kind of feel it). After awhile of this, the noises will become greater, and sometimes, when the car is slowed down or even stopped dead still (like at a light), there will be a clicking, like an elecric motor is spinning a gear past a metalic flap or such.

Needless to say, the car exhibited none of this when I took it by the shop. I don't think they disbelieved me, but they didn't know what to make of it without hearing it. They're deep inside the city, and it does it most predictably on highways.

(When I say that this is a new symptom, I mean that it didn't clack since the first day they put in the R&P, when they told me it was probably air working its way out).

They also didn't know what to do about the other symptom, as they said they'd checked everything and it all seemed tight.

So I'm not sure where to go from here. The clacking symptom seems concerning, but I have no clue what it is (other than that the steering motor seems to be trying to do something when the car is stopped, and to be distressed by right turns at high speed).

Any insights would be received with delight, but you've already helped me a lot, and I know it's tough when you can't see the car. Thanks in either case.

[gmtech1]

You are correct, noises and such are hard enough to diagnose when I have the car with me! Haha. Needless to say, not hearing the noise myself is a little harder. You say "steering motor", are you referring to the power steering pump? I suppose it's possible the valve in the pump is rattling due to some internal failure, but that's just a guess. Is this high frequency noise possibly the power steering pump whining? That will usually get worse when turning.

[stuart83]

Haha, sorry -- I know very little about the steering system, so I'm not actually sure just what I mean by "steering motor." What I mean is that the car is completely stopped, and something is snapping and shaking (maybe something like quietish pinball flippers), seeming to come from the steering system (wheel vibrates, etc.), so that makes me think it's driven by something active like a motor -- it can't just be something being shaken by the road, because the car is dead still.

The high-frequency stuff is more felt than heard, although sometimes it is accompanied by clacking. The best I can describe that is, you know how when your car is going fast and suddenly moves from concrete to textured pavement, it's not like the car is exactly shaking, but you can still kind of feel a sort of slight vibration transmitted to you? It's like that, but only through the wheel, and only turning right at high speeds.

So but yeah, from what you say, maybe it is the pump. It would seem consistent with what you're saying.

Right now, I'm considering offering to pay my shop $80 to let me take one of their guys for 60-90 minutes and drive on a highway, where I can make this happen with reasonably high confidence, as opposed to the city, where it's much more sporadic.

There's still the other issue about some play, too, but I can probably live with that, I suppose. I'm not sure if it's related. I would have thought not, until today when I was going in stop and go traffic on the freeway, and the play susddenly got terrible -- I was turning the wheel 6 inches back and forth in either direction while going straight at 20 mph -- and moments later the thing started clacking for a few seconds. All very confusing. Like I say, I think my best bet may be if I can get them to agree to ride along for long enough to experience it themselves. (Unless that seems an unreasonable thing to offer/request).

Thank you again for your help.

Originally Posted by gmtech1

You are correct, noises and such are hard enough to diagnose when I have the car with me! Haha. Needless to say, not hearing the noise myself is a little harder. You say "steering motor", are you referring to the power steering pump? I suppose it's possible the valve in the pump is rattling due to some internal failure, but that's just a guess. Is this high frequency noise possibly the power steering pump whining? That will usually get worse when turning.

[gmtech1]

The frequency noise may be a front wheel/hub bearing making noise, you description kinda sounds like that. Yes, it would be helpful to have some experienced ears in the car to eliminate the guesswork.

[stuart83]

I know you're not here, haven't seen it, and can't make any kind of real judgement. If that's all that can be said, please feel free to styat. Otherwise: does it seem reasonably unlikely to you that it's the rack and pinion itself that is bad and needs replacing, based on these symptoms? One of the things driving me crazy is that I'm leaving on Friday and the car will be away from this city for the next 45 days (and 11000 miles!). If the rack is going to fail, I don't want it to be far away from the people who fixed it.

If it's a more minor issue, I maybe needn't stress as much.

In either event, I'll probably try to ask them to ride with me as I say.

[gmtech1]

Yeah...that's about the best I can do from here. I would definitely get a qualified opinion on it before leaving on a trip like that. It's unfortunate that you need to drive so far out of the way to duplicate the noise/concern you are having. If these problems are new since the rack replacement, then they need to take a good look at it. Sorry I couldn't be more help!

[stuart83]

Hey gmtech,

Thank you again. So, the update: I did take the tech on a 90-minute drive on backroads so he could hear the sound. While there, we realized there were really two distinct sounds / phenomena. One was like an electrical clacking near the steering column, much like a relay. The other was the similar but different clicking taking place when the wheel was turned to the right. He decided the rack probably needed replaced, so to their credit, they replaced the R&P for free, and didn't even charge for the lengthy ride.

The good news: the steering is tighter now. That really took care of my original concern, the loose steering.

The bad news: both noises are still there, somewhat worse in fact (more common).

I need to leave on my trip tomorrow, relatively early in the day. My reasoning at this point is this: whatever is causing this, it's extremely unlikely to be the rack and pinion, given that it was just replaced again and the symptoms are still there. So I should just go, as planned, and when I get time, I can have another mechanic look into this. It's unlikely to turn into a big problem in my warrantied R&P, so if it is a big problem, it'll probably be something else.

Not sure what else to do, really.