3rd coolant leak, driver side this time. '98 3.1

[rcweston]

I'm loosing antifreeze again. I just replaced the timing cover last month, with a terrific leak in the gasket that just about destroyed the engine. Five years back the manifold gaskets leaked and were replaced. Now I have water showing up on the drivers side of the engine and moisture on the oil cap. oil looks good, not milky, not gooey. I'm loosing about a quart of antifreeze a week.
I see no traces of were its coming from only that it is on the drivers side and a few drips off of the frame when looking underneath the car. When it's parked after driving ,sometime their will be a very small puddle ( a few drips) and other times nothing on the floor.
It's dry up around the radiator and dry around the hoses to the radiator and from the engine.
On the other side of the engine (passengers), every thing appears dry around the water pump, hoses, and timing chain cover. No antifreeze on the frame or engine on that side.
Is there a gasket on the drivers side similar to the timing chain cover gasket on the passengers side?
Could the manifold be leaking again and draining off to that side of the engine?
Any suggestions on how to try and locate were its coming from? a good look is rather limited on that side.
Thanks for any suggestions and how to's
Rex

[Tech II]

Take a look under the throttle body....there are depressions on the top of the engine block where coolant can collect....if the depressions have coolant, probably the lower intake gaskets again....only other things on that side are the clamps/hoses to the throttle body, the thermostat housing, and the heater core pipe going into a fitting.....

Radiator could be spraying backwards toward that side too...

Have you tried pressure testing the system?

[rcweston]

Originally Posted by Tech II

.....

Radiator could be spraying backwards toward that side too...

Have you tried pressure testing the system?

I don't see any liquid at all except for under the transmission on the frame. I would expect to see it somewhere if it were spraying from the radiator and secondly, I am seeing water in the engine oil cap. This leads me to think it's not the radiator. It is obviously coming out of something and making its way to the frame, in some location that is hidden from view.

As for a pressure test, I don't have the equipment for that but I might be able to rent or purchase it somewhere. I have driven the car to heat the engine, and with the pressure that it creates while hot, have taken a fairly good look at all that could be seen. Of course the engine was hot and it was hard to get into some secluded areas.
I'll be looking again at the depressions around the throttle body you have explained about. If it is the intake manifold, is this normal to have it leak a second time? Could the antifreeze have anything to do with why I am getting leaks? I switched from Dex-cool to regular antifreeze 5 or 6 years ago when the first manifold gasket was replaced.

If you have some procedures or hints of how the pressure test works, I'm open to find out.
Thanks for the info.
I appreciate the many experienced advice that this forum gives, and thanks for your response, you have helped me out in the past.
Rex

[aleekat]

Most auto parts stores have a "loan a tool" program. You put down a deposit, you get it back when you bring the tool back. They can explain how to use the pressure tester or just google it. It's pretty simple. If you have the "plastic neck" radiator. Check that area closely. If original radiator, 14yrs is pretty long life. I've seen them only leak when hot(cracked) expands when hot.

[rcweston]

Originally Posted by aleekat

Most auto parts stores have a "loan a tool" program.
If original radiator, 14yrs is pretty long life. I've seen them only leak when hot(cracked) expands when hot.

I've got the tester today. Will be looking tomorrow.
thanks for the info
Rex

[rcweston]

Originally Posted by Tech II

Take a look under the throttle body....there are depressions on the top of the engine block where coolant can collect....if the depressions have coolant, probably the lower intake gaskets again....only other things on that side are the clamps/hoses to the throttle body, the thermostat housing, and the heater core pipe going into a fitting.....

Radiator could be spraying backwards toward that side too...

Have you tried pressure testing the system?

I took a good look under the throttle body but didn't see any liquid at all. While looking under the throttle body, I could see the water hose port for the heater and the metal body that it attaches to. But it had no indication of a leak. Also the bolt on manifold form the water jacket and the thermostat housing. They also had no indication leaks. and the hoses and clamps all appear good.
Filled the radiator and pressure tested the car over the week end. It took 15 lbs before I found it leaking in front of the throttle body from the lower intake manifold. Not much but a few constant bubbles would appear. I suspect that it's also leaking inward toward the inside of the engine.
This will be my project for next week.
Thanks "TechII" for pointing me in the right direction. And thanks to "aleekat" ( Ally Cat?) for the tip on getting a rental tester. The advice and thoughts of others certainly help out. I love the forum!!
Thanks again
Rex.

[rcweston]

Originally Posted by Tech II

Take a look under the throttle body....there are depressions on the top of the engine block where coolant can collect....if the depressions have coolant, probably the lower intake gaskets again....

Have you tried pressure testing the system?

I don't like what I see. The Felt pro gaskets that I put on 5-7 years ago have broken just like the original ones had done. This time, the break was to the inside of the engine more than it was the outside and in three really noticeable spots and a couple of others that would have gone shortly. I could have put as much as three or four gallons of antifreeze/water mix through these holes the last 8 months before the external leak started to show up! You would have thought that it would have shown up more in the oil during oil changes, but I changed the oil with the car hot, therefor the oil was very liquid like and masked the symptoms of the glycol.
The top of the engine has now been removed to the lower intake gasket and everything to that point is exposed. A black goo is on every spring, rod, cap, wall, hole, etc.. One exception is a few small areas of the valve cover which has yellow goo on it!

Trying to find what caused this, I ran into a couple of articles that call it "BLACK MAYONNAISE", caused from prolonged glycol (from the antifreeze) mixed in the oil! Mine is really bad since I've had two large leaks now over the last 8 months.
This stuff is terrible!! It has started to dry out in areas that oil isn't constantly on and even getting a little hardened in spots on the lifters.

Do I try and git it off of the engine parts that cant be removed?
some articles say it will eventually go away if you use a very good detergent oil made for that purpose. Others say to use "Marvel mystery oil, Sea foam, and resoilin" one even said to use kerosene; (sounds bad to me).
Others say to just leave it as is, so it doesn't plug anything up.

I'll be cleaning up anything that I can get out to wash. and wiping out anything I can get at.
One shop that has 25 bays in Texas, The owner swears by a product called CRC BRA-Kleen. They use it by the truck loads to clean off oil and grease. He says it has never damaged any rubber or plastic and never effected an electrical connection. It evaporates completely and doesn't effect paint. It's not made of the harsh chemicals that break cleaner is. He doesn't intentionally spray it on these parts but they do get it on them from spraying in the area, but he has never seen any effects from it. The can's instructions says differently.
What are your thoughts of cleaning some parts with this and whether to try and clean the fixed parts or just leave them as is?

thanks for any thoughts.
Rex

[Tech II]

I would clean off what you can can.......then, I would run the vehicle for about 100 miles, change the oil and filter, and repeat.....

I don't like the idea of coolant mixing with the oil, and causing potential bearing problems.....

[rcweston]

Originally Posted by Tech II

I would clean off what you can can.......then, I would run the vehicle for about 100 miles, change the oil and filter, and repeat.....

I don't like the idea of coolant mixing with the oil, and causing potential bearing problems.....

I've got the engine back together with a lot of cleaning, Looks ok.
start it up and it sounds good, but now I have a little white smoke that stinks coming out of the exhaust.
I thought at first it was just from start up but after the engine warmed and burnt off all the oils from the repair, I still have a little white smoke and a stinky smell from the exhaust.
I removed the radiator cap and filled the neck up with fluid, then started it up again. I get the water overflowing the neck, not a lot, just enough that it leaks over the top. After a bit i got a few bubbles, then when it lost the fluid in the neck, it all calmed down, no bubbles, no overflow.
Add now more fluid to top of neck and it does the same over again.
From what I have read, could this be a warped head leaking pressure from the cylinder to the water jacket? or a blown head gasket doing the same?
If so, how much more work is it to get to the head gaskets vs. replacing the lower manifold gasket that I just finished? and is it worth it on a car with 190K?
If not to bad a job, do you have a procedure?
What will I be looking for If I take it apart?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks Rex

[Tech II]

It's possible, that you could have been sucking coolant, into a cylinder, and that the coolant got into the exhaust..., then.if so, it will eventually burn out....

However, if you have a head gasket problem, then you will be doing that lower intake job all over again....

You said you had a leaking timing cover, that caused you to lose coolant....I don't know if that caused your car to overheat.....don't know if the leaking lower intake gaskets caused your car to overhear, also.....but if it did, it could have caused a head gasket problem......

So keep your fingers crossed.....keep an eye on your coolant level to see if you are still losing coolant, and if you are still getting smoke out of the exhaust....

[rcweston]

I have conflicting results. 1. water vapor in the exhaust (on a hot day). 2 bubbles in the radiator. (should have tested for combustion gases before I took it apart) 3. good compression at all cylinders ( very close to 120 psi on all cylinders) .
I shouldn't see white exhaust and I shouldn't have bubbles in the radiator, both could indicate a head gasket failure from all the studding I have done. But conflicting results, I should also see bad compression in at least one of the cylinder if not two of them. I see good compression on them all. I'm deep enough in this engine with all that has been done to this point, So I'm taking it apart again, I'm doing the head gasket job.
At this point I'm still waiting for parts, but have a couple of questions.
The head bolts were extremely hard to break free with a 28 inch breaker bar, but removed ok. It seemed like they had some sort of thread locker on them, sort of a sticky thread all the way coming out. I cleaned the end of one with a wire wheel and could see a big difference.
Now, at reinstament;
Some info states that you need to lubricate the threads with a little oil, other say to use thread locker, while still others say to put them in dry. My Gm manual doesn't say one way or the other,it just says to torque them to 44 lbs plus 95 degrees. Which way is correct, or does it depend on the manufacturer of the bolts? I have ordered new bolts.
Also I would like to make sure the blot holes and threads are clean before the new ones are installed. I measured the tread as a metric 1.5, but I can't find the diameter measurement. It is too big to fit a 10 x 1.5 nut and wobbles in a 12 x 1.5 nut. I have no reference for an 11 and can't seem to find one. I would like to chase the threads but need the exact size before I would even attempt it. I will re post this in a new thread today "head gasket replacement questions"and see if anyone has info that will help.
Thanks for all your help.
Rex