Bad wheel Bearing.

[Off_Timing]

Hi Guys,

We have a 2000 Windstar, 3.8L engine, about 145,000 km.

Over the past couple of months, I could hear a dull sound coming from the front end.
I can feel something not right at my feet. Very hard to describe. Kinda like something rubbing.
It gets a little more noticeable when the speed reached 40mph, then levels off.
I don't feel anything noticeable on the steering wheel.
I swapped tires front to back on both sides, I didn't feel any change.
The brake pads have at least half life on them.
The tie rods were replaced a few months ago. This issue started way after they were replaced.

I raised the front end, used wheel chocks, and put it in neutral, here is where it gets interesting. On the passenger side, the tire assembly turns/spins ok. I put my hands on the 3 and 9 o'clock and shook the tire, then again at the 6 and 12 o'clock. The wheel/tire assembly is solid.

On the driver side, spinning the wheel assembly feels ok. Put my hands at the 12 and 6 o'clock, wheel feels ok. But, when I put my hands at the 3 and 9 o'clock, I can move the wheel about 1/8th of an inch. While shaking the wheel, I checked the tie rod, it's solid. I looked at the steering arm, it looks solid as well.

I checked the torque on the wheel hub nut, it's at 200 ft-lbs., within spec.

At this point, I'm convinced it's the wheel bearing.

If anyone has an idea what else I should check, pls let me know.

Thanks.

[olopezm]

You mentioned it, but are you totally sure the inner tie rods are ok? I had a problem with those and only one side had play.

Another thing I would check is the condition of CV joints. I recognize that shouldn't cause any play on the hub, but it's still worth to check.

Oscar.

[Off_Timing]

See that's what's bothering me. I would have thought that a bad wheel bearing would give me the same movement play when I shake the wheel at the 12-6 o'clock AND at the 3-9 o'clock.

What's the proper way to check for play at the inner tie rod? I'm probably not doing it right.

Thanks.

[12Ounce]

I agree, you are probably feeling movement from the tie ends in that position. But detecting bad bearings by hand ... through the massive wheel and steering knuckle ... is very difficult, if not impossible. If you had the bearings loose in your hand, then you might "feel" something. I haven't replaced my bearings at 347k miles ... but I'm expecting bearings issues soon.

You may have to just start replacing parts until you find the noise maker ... and wheel bearings is probably a good place to start.

[Off_Timing]

Well, the good news is, my problem is not the wheel bearing. The bad news is, the play is coming from the steering rod.

I took the driver side wheel off and used a jack to raise the control arm. I used a puller to disconnect the tie-rod end from the steering knuckle. I pushed and pulled on the steering rod, and that's where the play is coming from.

I don't know much about the steering rack. Looking in-board, all I see is the rubber dust boot, which by the way is in good shape.

Does this mean that the whole steering rack have to be replaced? Or can the rod be disconnected or adjusted on it's own?

Thanks.

[olopezm]

That's the same thing I was talking about, the inner tie rods. They bolt/unbolt to the steering rack, if you have no leaks, then you won't need to replace the entire rack.

I've read from different users that using a crow's foot wrench can be a bit tricky. When I had mines done, the guy used a LONG socket (as long as the rod itself) and did both sides in about an hour. Either way make sure you use either the LOCKING PIN or THREAD LOCKER to prevent them from loosening; Northern_piper has a scary story about it!

Oscar.

[Off_Timing]

Ok, now I understand what you meant Oscar. I saw tie rod and I think tie rod end. I always thought that the steering rack was 1 piece. So what I think of as a steering rod, is actually the inner tie rod end.

Thanks a bunch guys.

[12Ounce]

I would be more inclined to replace the whole rack if you can find one at a fairly reasonable price. Why? Well, the best way to replace just the inner ties is to have the rack on the bench. The innner's can be replaced with the rack in-place ... but I would not feel very good about it ... if the replaced inner's are not secured properly, they can unscrew themselves and cause havoc.

Once you have the rack on the bench, you've done most of the work of a replacement. It's only money ... and you get a lot of stuff with the new racks: new inner ties, new seals throughout, new surfaces on the rack itself (they do fail!), new boots, etc, etc.

It is a lot of work to replace a rack, especially when its your first time ... and there is a mystery: Those hold-down bolts ... two of them ... don't turn...you must drive them upward after you remove the nuts!

[Off_Timing]

I replaced the driver side inner tie rod today. It really wasn't that bad. After I broke it loose with a 1 5/16' open ended wrench, I un-threaded the rest by hand. Putting it back on, I used thread locker and the two keeper pins. Took me about 2 hours total.

The inner tie rod was worn, but not too bad. Just a little bit of play at the socket.

Now for the bad news. The rotating noise is still there. I'm thinking now that it could be a bad tire. The tires need replacing before winter. They're too worn for winter weather.

It's something rotating because the sound is cyclic.

I thought it might be brakes, but I don't feel anything on the pedal or on the floor when I apply the brakes (one foot on the floor, one on the brake).

Could it be a bad brake rotor? But I should feel that on the brake pedal, shouldn't I?

[olopezm]

It's a good thing that you're half way now!

When the guy removed the inner tie rods on mine the passenger side had only a little play too, but when installed on the rack it seemed like a lot more. Anyway, you've done it and are good to go.

About the noise; I don't know man, you already checked wheel hubs and they are OK.

Are the boots on the CV joints OK? Have you seen any grease leaking out?
This one might be a long shot but is there any chance that one of the pulleys is making the sound only under load?
Are the engine and transmission mounts OK?

That's what comes to my mind; when I had a bad engine mount in my Pontiac it would make a cyclic "rumbling like" noise when going over speed bumps... Maybe one of yours is bad and some harmonic vibrations are being transferred to the body.

I don't know much about rotors but I know the brake pedal in my uncle's car would pulsate because of warped rotors. You could actually feel the entire car was like "brake, let go, brake, let go..." even when you kept pressure on the pedal.

Oscar.

[northern piper]

Glad you got the inner tie rod replaced ok. Did you do an alignment after that? Replacing tie rods generally means that you'd need to have a reputable shop do an alignment.

Back to your problem. A quick way to see if it's to do with brakes is to get a set of pinch pliers (they're plastic wire cutter-looking pliers that lock) or alternatively use a set of vice grips. Pinch off the flex brake line so that when you push the pedal the caliper doesn't move. Tuck the pliers safely in the wheel well and go for a careful drive. Careful because you don't have the pinch side brake working and the van will pull to the side when you do brake. If you pinch off the line and the noise goes away, you know it's a caliper problem or rotor problem. If it does go away, I'd be suspecting the rotor. You can either have it turned and trued or replace. On the topic of rotors, make sure you torque the lug nuts properly and in the "star" pattern so that the rotor doesn't get cranked down tight which leads to warping. I'm not surprised that you don't feel the noise on the floor, but do hear it.

I'd be betting the rotor myself...


oh and good that you used loctite and the pins on the inner tie rod...yep, that was almost a bad situation for me...

[12Ounce]

Originally Posted by northern piper

............. get a set of pinch pliers (they're plastic wire cutter-looking pliers that lock) or alternatively use a set of vice grips. Pinch off the flex brake line ..........

Please, please never pinch brake hoses. I know, I know ... some of the "in-print-experts" will use this technique. But on another page of the same work manual they will warn about hanging a caliper's weight on a brake hose! What inconsistensies!

A brake hose usually has an inner liner, with an outside cover (sometimes including steel mesh) to resist pressure and abrasion. A brake hose should never be pinched or even bent in a short radius. The inner liner can break away and totally block fluid flow ... or the outside wall can rupture.

[northern piper]

I have to comment on 12ounce's comments and despite the fact that they are contradictory to my earlier comments, I agree with them. I can also vouch for knowing that the flex brake line on my 2000 windstar 3.8 has a rubber line that with no liner that i could see. I had to replace one a little while back and cut the old one to see if anything was inside... nope. (perhaps yours may be different).

Anyway, these are the exact pliers I have...

http://www.mufflershop.de/Shop/produ...92&language=en

I have done this pinch test, carefully to diagnose pulsating rotors.

So, 12ounce, I agree, BUT, I have used this technique carefully. and for short 500' trips.

[Off_Timing]

Thanks Norther Piper. I found your post in the inner tie rod. Glad everyone was ok.

I have seen similar hose pincers, but knowing me, I'd be afraid to mess it up and ruin the hose.
The driver side rotor is ok. I checked the deflection while rotating it. I'm big on the criss-cross lug nut pattern, both installing and removing the wheel nuts.

After taking off the caliper and rotor, I turned the wheel bearing by hand. It's a little tight, and I could feel a "slow spot". So I wanted to remove it. 4 hours later, the damn thing is still on....SOLID. I'm giving up and taking it to my transmission mechanic (I trust them most). I'll ask them to give the whole driveline a once over.

When I was assembling everything, I was checking the other parts, I discovered a 1/4 inch tear on the inner boot of the driver side half-shaft. It's on a side, not a fold.

Anyways, after so many hours of this, I think the van is telling me, it needs all these things checked/replaced, and I don't have more time to do it.

Thanks.

[Off_Timing]

Just want to close this thread.

It did turn out to be a bad wheel bearing. Along the way, I ended up replacing a worn out inner tie rod, and a half-shaft that was starting to wear.

:-)