Front strut replacement - 97 Riv

[edwinn]

This post describes the "botched strut job."


In 2008 I had the front struts replaced after the front end started bobbing up-and-down due to excitation from expressway joints that happened to be spaced apart at the system resonance?


Attempt #1

The first attempt at strut replace was at a Liberty Mutual approved body and frame shop. I asked for Delco parts and the body shop got them from Koons, a regional dealer and Delco middleman. First issue was the strut bearing plates (upper mounts) were odd-balls. One was from India, and the other from China. I rejected those and the shop got a matched pair. Next the struts were installed with a new alignment, and after driving only 20 ft., I noticed a KNOCK in the front end when driving over the first joint in their parking lot. I stopped right there and went it to report it.


Delco Regional Dealer

Fast forward about three weeks. After at least TWO re-visits to diagnose the strut KNOCK, the shop told me they were no longer going to spend hours on the vehicle without more labor charges and told me to "take it up with Delco." Fast forward another two weeks: I filed a claim and went in to the Delco Parts manager (at Koons) and sat on the stool in front of his Parts Counter and browbeat him until he told me: "it was upper management policy to fill orders with oddball parts." At this point I'm out 1200 bucks! After months of calling Delco about the claim, it never went anywhere, probably because they were in bankruptcy.


Attempt #2

Next I went to a Buick dealer for diagnosis and yep, they said noise coming from the front struts and there were past issues with Delco struts. I also had a Chevy dealer drive it and diagnose. Decided to have the Buick dealer pull the Delco parts and installed Monroe struts and bearing plates, and after another 500 bucks in labor plus parts.. still knocking!!


Attempt #3

Getting tired of living with the noisy suspension, I returned the Monroe parts to Advance Auto and they replaced them, then took the vehicle to a local mechanic who looked it over, change out the struts and tightened things up. Finally the knocking went away. This is NOT a new type of project for me, having hopped-up the front and rear suspension on a Cutlass years ago. That job came out GREAT. It was like a new car!


Last week

The front end has been noise free for 3 - 4 years but on inspection last week I noticed TWO rubber insulators RIPPED and hanging from the TOP of the driver-side strut.


Photo of LEFT Front strut with TWO ripped insulators hanging. I cut the top one off with a razor.


Why do these guys KEEP INSTALLING worn or destroyed parts in the Riv? Are there no new or replacement insulators available? It shouldn't cost 2-1/2 grand to basically put two shocks and springs in a GM car!!

What's more, the protective (accordion) boots don't fit and easily side up-and-down on the strut bodies. There are no clamps or even a press-fit at the bottom. I asked the Buick dealer last week during the grease job and he didn't have much to say about it.


So I ask here.. thanks in advance.


-Ed

[maxwedge]

The rubber spring insulators are available, what a horror story, I'd have been in small claims court with this deal! But of course the strut must come out and be disassembled!!

[HotZ28]

What a bummer! When installing existing components onto a replacement strut, care must be taken to insure the upper spring seat is installed with the correct orientation to the lower spring seat or mount. The orientation of the upper spring seat determines the direction that the coil spring is bowed to allow for inner fender clearance. If the orientation is off, the spring may rub on the inner fender well when the wheels are turned or when the suspension is compressed. You have several choices for new upper spring seats:

MOOG Part # K5343
RAYBESTOS Part # 5251211
MONROE Part # 903973
Check RockAuto for best price.

[edwinn]

Thanks for the replies, the following are pic of the odd-ball parts.


Delco odd-ball Bearing Plates

These parts, one from India and the other China, were intentionally supplied by GM to the shop who installed them.












These parts were installed in Attempt #1 and were later replaced.


Monroe odd-ball Struts

The struts below were supplied by Advance Auto from their warehouse.



As you can see, they're on my saw table.. so I had some control over quality and the ability to accept or reject them. They were close enough (at least the same material and color) and I couldn't wait any longer for another pair from the warehouse. These struts were installed in Attempt #2, after which the vehicle STILL was knocking in the front suspension.

Just thought you'd like to see what was going on.


-Ed

[edwinn]

Another look at the springs and bearing plates

While installing the wheel panels, I sat on the milk crate and pondered the FRONT STRUT situation, possibly the most BOTCHED automotive job I ever had to deal with. See below.. is the SPRING too big in diameter at the top for the bearing plates? The Insulator (A) seems to be falling through and inside the spring.


Close-up photo

See diameter of Bearing Plate, and diameter of the upper `turn´ of spring. Also what appears to be a SCRAP piece of rubber (B) wrapped around the top, and where I trimmed it off with a razor (C).




How could the STRUT assemblies be so screwed up? after THREE shops worked on it?


Did any of you guys see this kludge?


-Ed

[Albertj]

Hmmm... quick comments.

The mismatch in the GM mounts is a non issue unless the parts are off spec. That is, GM has a spec for the type/hardness of the metal plate (probably just a certain gauge of mild carbon steel) and for the durometer of the polymer (not necessarily rubber) molded into the mounts, et cetera. You can rail about the "mismatch," but I probably would not.

As for those rubber rings, the dealer really should have replaced the other miscellaneous parts and told you about the need, and charged you. Depending on your attitude at the dealer they may have decided not to in order to avoid the impression that they were running up the bill. They also can not get OE parts for older cars on short notice. If those things are available from GM at all they are probably on a shelf in a regional warehouse. That said - Most dealers can install aftermarket parts if needed in this case - they call it "expedite the repair" - not for free mind you but just sayin' they did not have to make do with your old rubber rings as long as you would pay for replacements. Point being that if you are meddling in the parts to be installed, they are less likely to take the initiative to make replacements. Looking at what you've got the easiest thing probably would have been to get the Monroe "StrutMate" kits for the Riv, they come with all those miscellaneous parts, along with the Monroe strut boot and snubber kit. Your headache, however, would be that the Monroe boots are thinner than the OE boots and will not last as long. I got about 60,000 miles out of my set before they fatigued and cracked from weather and what not. The fact that the OE boots do not snap onto the shocks is a non-issue, they just have to cover the tops of the towers. IIRC the OE boots fit over the Monroe strut cylinders and rest on the spring seat, which is OK. It is actually an advantage because any moisture (including condensation) that might get in will drain out instead of being held against the strut cylinder and causing corrosion. Again, the "snap on fit" of the boots, it's also a non-issue.

The 'root cause' issue for your saga, stepping back and looking from my distance, probably is that the mechanic has a limited amount of time to keep your car on the rack so is not going to hunt for parts unless necessary. If your car could be reassembled roadworthy that day with what it rolled in with then there is a good chance that's what they decided to do. I suspect you did not direct them to replace other worn/damaged suspension parts either verbally or in writing.... so they get your car in the air, replace struts with what you stipluate, cobble it back together and away you go.

As for the OE vs Monroe struts, I am not a big fan of either. Monroes are, well, jiggly to me at least when new. The OEs are way too soft for my taste (almost all smooth interstate or rural secondary highway driving). I've liked the KYBs and Gabriels. I've driven on all 4 brands, '98 Riv, 260,000+ miles.

Th

[edwinn]

Originally Posted by Albertj

Hmmm... quick comments.

The mismatch in the GM mounts is a non issue unless the parts are off spec. That is, GM has a spec for the type/hardness of the metal plate (probably just a certain gauge of mild carbon steel) and for the durometer of the polymer (not necessarily rubber) molded into the mounts, et cetera. You can rail about the "mismatch," but I probably would not.

As for those rubber rings, the dealer really should have replaced the other miscellaneous parts and told you about the need, and charged you. Depending on your attitude at the dealer they may have decided not to in order to avoid the impression that they were running up the bill. They also can not get OE parts for older cars on short notice. If those things are available from GM at all they are probably on a shelf in a regional warehouse. That said - Most dealers can install aftermarket parts if needed in this case - they call it "expedite the repair" - not for free mind you but just sayin' they did not have to make do with your old rubber rings as long as you would pay for replacements. Point being that if you are meddling in the parts to be installed, they are less likely to take the initiative to make replacements. Looking at what you've got the easiest thing probably would have been to get the Monroe "StrutMate" kits for the Riv, they come with all those miscellaneous parts, along with the Monroe strut boot and snubber kit. Your headache, however, would be that the Monroe boots are thinner than the OE boots and will not last as long. I got about 60,000 miles out of my set before they fatigued and cracked from weather and what not. The fact that the OE boots do not snap onto the shocks is a non-issue, they just have to cover the tops of the towers. IIRC the OE boots fit over the Monroe strut cylinders and rest on the spring seat, which is OK. It is actually an advantage because any moisture (including condensation) that might get in will drain out instead of being held against the strut cylinder and causing corrosion. Again, the "snap on fit" of the boots, it's also a non-issue.

The 'root cause' issue for your saga, stepping back and looking from my distance, probably is that the mechanic has a limited amount of time to keep your car on the rack so is not going to hunt for parts unless necessary. If your car could be reassembled roadworthy that day with what it rolled in with then there is a good chance that's what they decided to do. I suspect you did not direct them to replace other worn/damaged suspension parts either verbally or in writing.... so they get your car in the air, replace struts with what you stipluate, cobble it back together and away you go.

As for the OE vs Monroe struts, I am not a big fan of either. Monroes are, well, jiggly to me at least when new. The OEs are way too soft for my taste (almost all smooth interstate or rural secondary highway driving). I've liked the KYBs and Gabriels. I've driven on all 4 brands, '98 Riv, 260,000+ miles.

Th

Hey thanks a bunch! For now, the struts will ok as long as they're quiet. That means free of knocks and clunks. It was the worst and longest drawn-out auto job I ever had to deal with, and the most expensive (except maybe for body work.) Those components will have to come out before long IOT replace the squeaky front bushings.. in the lower a-frame?

This isn't the first time I'd rebuilt the suspension on a GM. The entire suspension of the 79 Cutlass was replaces (over two or three separate install jobs) with the latest and heaviest springs, torsion bars, struts, links that Delco had available for that model. It turned out GREAT.. the body was lifted (jacked) nicely all around and the ride/handing were MUCH improved. It was [almost] like a new/different car.. and tough looking! One saturday I put in for sale in a parking lot near-by, and someone bought it cash before dinner!

-Ed

[Albertj]

Originally Posted by edwinn

Hey thanks a bunch! For now, the struts will ok as long as they're quiet. That means free of knocks and clunks. It was the worst and longest drawn-out auto job I ever had to deal with, and the most expensive (except maybe for body work.) Those components will have to come out before long IOT replace the squeaky front bushings.. in the lower a-frame?

This isn't the first time I'd rebuilt the suspension on a GM. The entire suspension of the 79 Cutlass was replaces (over two or three separate install jobs) with the latest and heaviest springs, torsion bars, struts, links that Delco had available for that model. It turned out GREAT.. the body was lifted (jacked) nicely all around and the ride/handing were MUCH improved. It was [almost] like a new/different car.. and tough looking! One saturday I put in for sale in a parking lot near-by, and someone bought it cash before dinner!

-Ed

the components do not come out to replace bushings, rather you replace the entire lower control arms, bushings preinstalled.

[edwinn]

Originally Posted by Albertj

the components do not come out to replace bushings, rather you replace the entire lower control arms, bushings preinstalled.

Yes.. that's what I've heard from various shops. What happened to the day when you'd press a new bushing in with an arbor press? I worked an arbor press at a manufacturing company back in the 70's. It shouldn't be to difficult. GM makes a LOT of money on parts and service.

Also.. at a car show in California, I talked to an owner of a 60's GTO who had MARVELOUS custom front suspension hardware installed. Cannot remember the manufacturer, but these parts were excellent! and precisely made. Still can't believe the hack-job that three different shops did on those struts!!

It really acted up this past winter in cold weather.. lots of creaking noises. It's quiet now.

-Ed