Porsche 936 question

[lovegt40]

as far as I know the 936 was build only in the long tail version for le mans.

Didnt they made any short version body for the 936/78? I remember I saw a pic of a black 936 without front lights with a shorter tail.Does anybody know a little more?
The 936/76 was black and without naca air intake,didnt they ever build a 936/77?

I want refurbish the old tamiya model, but dont like the classic version martini/le mans 78 and would like to build something different (maybe shorter, also a prototype..dunno)

[jaykay640]

There was a the prototype of the car that was matt black ( no high airbox but Martini decoration ) that was run at the Nuerburgring. This is often called the "diable noir". The shape is very different from the Tamiya kits. I think there was a Mitsuwa kit or something like that that's close.

I don't remebre a short/black/no headlights version of the 936/78. If you're fed up with the Martini version you could build the ESSEX or JULES versions of the 936/78.

Maybe the black short looking car you have seen was the WSC Porsche Spyder during testing, that was made out of a Jaguar XJR-14 chassis and became the double LeMans winner of Joest in the 90's!?

[icon_modeler]

For a pretty good cross section of 936 liveries you can look here,

http://www.racingsportscars.com/type...rsche/936.html

Most of these have been produced as kits or as decal transkits to work with the Tamiya 936 kits.

Here is a quick run down of what has been produced over the years. Most if not all of this stuf will be very hard to find and out of production.

1) 1976 Black "Martini" version (Nurburgring) - Kits were produced by Mitsuwa (Plastic) and Speedline (Resin).
2) 1976 White "Martini" version (No Airbox) - Kits were produced by Mitsuwa (Plastic) and Speedline (Resin) Important to note that the white no airbox version of the car ran with two different Martini Paint schemes. One paint scheme was the same as the Black version (Monza) and the other paint scheme was the same as the 1976 high airbox (LeMans) car.
3) 1976 White "Martini" version (High Airbox, LeMans, Mosport) Kits were produced by Rennesance and by Scale Designs.

Please note, up to this point the 936 was based largely on the body works of the 917/30. The cars were much wider and had a shorter wheel base then the 936 cars of the 1977 season and beyond.

4) 1977 White "Martini" version (LeMans) - Kit by Tamiya.
5) 1978 White "Martini" version (LeMans) - Kit by Tamiya.
6) 1979 Red, White & Blue "Essex" version (LeMans) - Can be built using the Tamiya 1978 kit together with decals from either Scale Designs or Studio 27.
7) 1980 White "Martini / Liqui Moly" version (Also known as a 908/80) (LeMans) - Can be built using the Tamiya 1977 kit together with decals from Studio 27.
8) 1981 White "Jules" version (LeMans) - Can be built using the Tamiya 1978 kit together with decals from either Scale Designs or Studio 27.
9) 1981 "Technocar" version (Also known as a 908/80) (LeMans) - Can be built using the Tamiya 1977 kit together with decals from Studio 27.
10) 1982 "Vegla" version (Also known as a 908/80) (German Interseries - Zolder, Hockenheim, Wunstorf, Most) - Can be built using a combination of the Tamiya 1977 and 1978 kits and some parts of the Studio 27 "Lindsay Saker" decal sheet. Some decals will have to be self made.
11) 1982 "Kremer" version (German Interseries - Zolder, Nurburgring, Hockenheim, Wunstorf) - Can be built using a combination of the Tamiya 1977 and 1978 kits, No decals for this car are available as far as I know.
12) 1982 "Lindsay Saker" version ( Kyalami) - Can be built using the Tamiya 1977 kit together with decals from Studio 27.
13) 1982 "Lui / Nigrin" version (German Interseries - Not sure what races) - Can be built using the Tamiya 1977 kit together with decals from Studio 27.
14) 1982 "Belga" version (LeMans) - Can be built using the Tamiya 1978 kit though it would require serius modifications as this car had a closed cockpit per the 1982 Group C regulations. No decals are available for this version. Other liveries of this car also raced threw out the 1982 season.
15) 1983 "Warsteiner" version (German Interseries - Zolder, Hockenheim, Norisring, Nurburgring) - Can be built using the Tamiya 1977 kit together with decals from Studio 27.

Interesting note: All of these cars existed but there were ever only about 4 or 6 936 chassis ever made so the cars were constantly changing over it's life time.

Good luck with your build. I hope you find one you like.

[lotus123]

Originally Posted by icon_modeler

4) 1977 White "Martini" version (LeMans) - Kit by Tamiya.

12) 1982 "Lindsay Saker" version ( Kyalami) - Can be built using the Tamiya 1977 kit together with decals from Studio 27.


Interesting note: All of these cars existed but there were ever only about 4 or 6 936 chassis ever made so the cars were constantly changing over it's life time.

Good luck with your build. I hope you find one you like.

Great post - thanks!

I have this combination, having watched this race back when Kyalami was one of the great tracks!

The kit is a motorised toy, but having the open cockpit it will be a rewarding challenge to find the detailed pics and to do it properly.

[lovegt40]

thank u very much for the infos.
The picture I am referring to is this, and book says it is referred to the first prototype 936/001 at paul ricard test in 1976.
Can be this the "diable noir"? ( I honestly would prefer the truly german version of the name , sounds better for the Nordschleife..).
All the cockpit area is different from the pics I'seen around,as well as also the front air intake looks smaller.
Real angry eh?







dunno what it is, but I like it

[gionc]

I like it also: it's not blind or shortail but I like the thing , curious: i never seen a colour picture of it. I ever been impressed by those massive 3D vents on front fenders: masterwork!

[icon_modeler]

Originally Posted by lovegt40

thank u very much for the infos.
The picture I am referring to is this, and book says it is referred to the first prototype 936/001 at paul ricard test in 1976.
Can be this the "diable noir"? ( I honestly would prefer the truly german version of the name , sounds better for the Nordschleife..).
All the cockpit area is different from the pics I'seen around,as well as also the front air intake looks smaller.
Real angry eh?







dunno what it is, but I like it

Yes, That is number 1 in my post above. I have never seen this picture though and this version looks to have a different cockpit surround. The picture is obviuosly a very early test version as there are no graphics on the car yet. I would point out that you would be in for a huge amount of work to try and transform the Tamiya kit into this version. As I stated above the early 936 cars all took their chassis dimensions, track width & wheel base from the 917/30, so this version of the 936 was much wider and shorter then the version of the 936 depicted by Tamiya.

Here is a color picture of the car. Please don't pay any attention to the BBS wheels, the 936 NEVER used BBS wheels in a race.

[gionc]

LOL! This is the color picture I ever seen in B/W, for example on Porsche Racing Milestones of Hal Thoms

I'm wondering if someone touched up strips it since all the ground looks B/W

[icon_modeler]

Originally Posted by gionc

LOL! This is the color picture I ever seen in B/W, for example on Porsche Racing Milestones of Hal Thoms

I'm wondering if someone touched up strips it since all the ground looks B/W

Found this one last night!! Even the grass is green! A lot of work for Photoshop

[lovegt40]

isnt around any slot car body suitable for this idea?

The difference between this car (too nice) and the 936/78 are really too much.

[ScratchBuilt]

I dunno - you don't check the forum for a couple of days, and when you come back, people are talking about the 936!

Yes, that last photo is from the 936's first ever race at the Nurburgring 300km, driven by Rolf Stommelen. By the next race at Monza it had the familiar white livery, but with a taller rear wing.

From a Le Mans perspective, here's how the cars developed over the years:

1976 chassis 001 - short tail, no airbox, race number 18, retired
chassis 002 - short tail, airbox, race number 20, winner

1977 chassis 001 - long tail, airbox, race number 4, winner
chassis 002 - long tail, airbox, race number 3, retired

For the 1977 season they changed more than just the bodywork - wheelbase and track widths were altered too, for example.

1978 chassis 001 - long tail, airbox, race number 6, runner-up
chassis 002 - long tail, airbox, race number 7, third-place
chassis 003 - long tail, airbox, race number 5, retired

001 and 003 were now in full 1978-spec (water-cooling, etc), 002 remained in 1977-spec. Chassis 001 was used for extensive testing in a mainly white livery without the Martini stripes - and in at least one photo it's using those BBS wheels!

1979 chassis 001 - long tail, airbox, race number 14, retired
chassis 003 - long tail, airbox, race number 12, disqualified

1980 chassis 004 (or 908-80 as it was called at the time) - long tail, airbox, race number 9, runner-up

1981 chassis 001 - long tail, airbox, race number 12, 12th place
chassis 003 - long tail, airbox, race number 11, winner
chassis 004 - long tail, airbox, race number 14, retired

chassis 004 was the 'unofficial' car built-up by Joest Racing, and was to a different spec to the factory cars: air cooled engine, lighter weight, etc.

So, as the original test car was 936-001 (and again in 1978!), and no other chassis used or identified, this leaves us with just the three official works cars, and the unofficial Joest 908-80 / 936-004. Compared with the number of 917's, 956's and 962's built in other periods, the Le Mans results for the 936 are actually very impressive.

Check out Francois Hurel's 'Porsche au Mans 1972 - 1981' and Paul Frere's 'Porsche Racing Cars of the 1970's' for more info. These two are the only books I've found which give the 936 anything like the attention it deserves (okay, you can add 'Excellence Was Expected' to the list, too, but it's not exactly cheap...)

Not sure if any of this helps your planning, but it gave me an excuse to go through the books!

All the best,

SB

[lovegt40]

Originally Posted by ScratchBuilt

I dunno - you don't check the forum for a couple of days, and when you come back, people are talking about the 936!

Yes, that last photo is from the 936's first ever race at the Nurburgring 300km, driven by Rolf Stommelen. By the next race at Monza it had the familiar white livery, but with a taller rear wing.

From a Le Mans perspective, here's how the cars developed over the years:

1976 chassis 001 - short tail, no airbox, race number 18, retired
chassis 002 - short tail, airbox, race number 20, winner

1977 chassis 001 - long tail, airbox, race number 4, winner
chassis 002 - long tail, airbox, race number 3, retired

For the 1977 season they changed more than just the bodywork - wheelbase and track widths were altered too, for example.

1978 chassis 001 - long tail, airbox, race number 6, runner-up
chassis 002 - long tail, airbox, race number 7, third-place
chassis 003 - long tail, airbox, race number 5, retired

001 and 003 were now in full 1978-spec (water-cooling, etc), 002 remained in 1977-spec. Chassis 001 was used for extensive testing in a mainly white livery without the Martini stripes - and in at least one photo it's using those BBS wheels!

1979 chassis 001 - long tail, airbox, race number 14, retired
chassis 003 - long tail, airbox, race number 12, disqualified

1980 chassis 004 (or 908-80 as it was called at the time) - long tail, airbox, race number 9, runner-up

1981 chassis 001 - long tail, airbox, race number 12, 12th place
chassis 003 - long tail, airbox, race number 11, winner
chassis 004 - long tail, airbox, race number 14, retired

chassis 004 was the 'unofficial' car built-up by Joest Racing, and was to a different spec to the factory cars: air cooled engine, lighter weight, etc.

So, as the original test car was 936-001 (and again in 1978!), and no other chassis used or identified, this leaves us with just the three official works cars, and the unofficial Joest 908-80 / 936-004. Compared with the number of 917's, 956's and 962's built in other periods, the Le Mans results for the 936 are actually very impressive.
Check out Francois Hurel's 'Porsche au Mans 1972 - 1981' and Paul Frere's 'Porsche Racing Cars of the 1970's' for more info. These two are the only books I've found which give the 936 anything like the attention it deserves (okay, you can add 'Excellence Was Expected' to the list, too, but it's not exactly cheap...)

Not sure if any of this helps your planning, but it gave me an excuse to go through the books!

All the best,

SB

Thank u Master SB.
Everything is much clearer now, but seems so the /78 tamiya car is definitely another car compared to the one I like.Do u know if maybe Joest raced the 001/76 car with the cockpit as in the picture I posted above? All pics I found are of a full open cockpit and still black livery,even if is definitely very hard to find good pics of the early 936's on internet.

I saw decaldoc made the decal sheet for the black car,so maybe there is something (also done in the past) to make this one.

[ScratchBuilt]

The bubble-screen on 936-001 appears to be an idea tried out in testing, then quickly discarded: this is the only photo I've found (so far) that shows it in use. Other photos show the full-width raised lip which the cars eventually raced with.

My second edition of 'The Porsche Book' by Boschen and Barth has several photos of the initial 936 tests, including the black car - with the Martini racing stripes added, as at the Nurburgring 300km - being wind-tunnel tested. Bodywork variations included a large faring behind the driver with NACA ducts for the air intakes, a very mid-70's F1-style airbox mounted on the flat rear deck, a combination of the faring and airbox similar to the one eventually used later in the year, and another development of the faring-without-airbox which included steeply sloping sidescreens.

The original short-tail only raced in 1976 - the only year Porsche contested the full Group 6 World Championship. From 1977 their main focus for the 936 was Le Mans. Another notable race appearance was chassis 001 at the Silverstone 6 Hours in 1979, driven by Brian Redman and Jochen Mass...who had a very large 'off' on the run to Woodcote. Sources quote the speed as being 175mph...

Although Joest Racing were busy through the mid / late 70's, most of this was with their ex-works 908-03's (chassis numbers 008 and 012, I believe) which were developed with various engine installations, bodywork variations, etc. I'd have to check if the Joest 908-80 / 936-004 raced anywhere other than Le Mans - it might have been out at the Nurburgring in 1981 too, I think.

The only race for the black Martini livery was the Nurburgring 300km; the Ickx / Mass entry at Monza was the first appearance of the white livery (car number 3) - the black car didn't look too good in the press photos!

Cheers!

SB

[outpost961]

When your ready to build this kit i have the decals with correction for the MITSUA - EL DIABLO PORSCHE 936 kit. BLACK BOX PROTOTYPES Beautifully printed-never released. you can PM me for details. We even had the correct BBS rims with polished rin and center nut!

[outpost961]

The KREMER were printed by CADY i think. I purchased a built model a few years ago on Ebay. Very nice. I had 10 of those Mitsua kits at one point! One of Quatermans MRRN magazines did an article on all the 936 and is a valuable info source. Double check all articles from all sources if you can. Great cars!!!