2000 3.8 #2 missfire and strange plenum noise and rattling noise possibly cured

[hatethewindstar]

My windstar about a month ago developed a missed detected in #2. It also had a rattling noise coming from the backside of the motor, a weird sound coming from the plenum almost like a popping noise.

I tried all upgrades even the valve cover upgrade, coilpack, plugs,plug wires, o2 sensors and nothing made it improve.

symptoms were bad stumble, loss of power almost like plugged cats or out of fuel, seemed to run a lot better at higher rpms, at 2500rpm would stumble bad and then 15 seconds later clear up and run smooth at 3500rpm then 25 seconds later drop to 2500 and stumble again.

under 1/2 throttle ran very poorly but seemed to clear up under full throttle, always wanted to die when coming to a stop, various cylinder misses detected but #2 was always an instant code set immediately after the engine was started. It has had a lean condition set occasionally on the rear bank but never the front bank.

weird sounds out the tailpipe at idle

Y-pipe where cats are having weird sounds and vibrating badly

hooked a vacuum gauge to the port for the power brake booster line. Here is what happened. At idle the gauge fluctuated rapidly between 10" and 5" of vacuum. When it was about to die vacuum readings dropped to between 0" and 5" of vacuum and again rapidly fluctuated till it either died or went back up to the 10" of vacuum and fluctuating really fast.

Everything about this driveability issue pointed towards an ignition problem or electronic issue.

I tore apart the motor yesterday and found this, a broken valve spring on the #2 exhaust valve. The valve could be unseated with my finger ... Hopefully this is the root cause of the problem

[northern piper]

well, as much as I feel bad about your problem and the things that came to my mind while I was reading your post weren't broken valve spring... good find! As an aside, I always like finding something that's clearly wrong when doing the diagnostic stuff. That, is clearly wrong!

Let us know how you do with the replacement. Glad it was found, and relatively easy to get to.

[hatethewindstar]

Originally Posted by northern piper

well, as much as I feel bad about your problem and the things that came to my mind while I was reading your post weren't broken valve spring... good find! As an aside, I always like finding something that's clearly wrong when doing the diagnostic stuff. That, is clearly wrong!

Let us know how you do with the replacement. Glad it was found, and relatively easy to get to.

I did a great deal of internet searches and found many misses detected shared the same driveability issues that my windstar had so I did the common repairs. However unlike their misses my van seems to have had the intake runner motor plastic clips replaced, the green manifold bolt upgrade.

I did come across a few threads that mentioned a tapping sound associated with a miss that was never cured or the owner gave up and sent it to pickapart. Some claimed it to be the belt tensioner as well.

I have read this to be a common problem with these "beehive" springs & I have read of them breaking on Camaro's etc but figured that to be a over reving issues where this van never see's that.

So if you have a miss with a pronounced tapping sound almost sounds like piston slap or a rod knock ..... pull your valve covers.

I expect my new valve spring and seal kit to come by this weekend and will let you all know if this solved P0302 and if the van runs good again.

[danielsatur]

What would the compression test look like on cylinder #2 with a broken spring.
Did you use compressed air to hold the valves up during the replacement?

[hatethewindstar]

Originally Posted by danielsatur

What would the compression test look like on cylinder #2 with a broken spring.
Did you use compressed air to hold the valves up during the replacement?

No compression test was done. The way it was I felt that it couldn't possibly build any compression anyways. You can clearly see in the pictures the valve isn't even seated and I could press the valve down with my finger about 1/4 - 3/8 of an inch. Maybe at higher RPM's the compression helped seal the valved and that is why the miss was less pronounced.

I am going to pull all the plugs and put rope in the cylinder and hand turn the motor and at TDC the piston and rope should keep the valve up.

I am using a autozone spring remover, it basically grabs the sides of the spring and compresses it. The you just simply remove the keepers.

I just hope the valve itself wasn't damaged, but it does seem to rotate smoothly even in the seated position.

[danielsatur]

1) Block holes going into the block for oil return, so you don't drop a keeper.
2) Buy extra valve keepers, because they are easy to drop.
3) Use a compression guage spark plug attachment, and a regulated air compressior(120 psi).
4) Make sure you take the valve stem out of compression guage spark plug attachment, else 120 psi wont go into cylinder 2 to hold the valves up.
5) Use a large plastic drinking straw packed with grease to hold the valve keeper during replacement.

It'a a 10min job with the valve cover off!

I had no luck with magnetic screw drivers, or grease on a screw driver.

[hatethewindstar]

Fedex is supposed to be delivering all my valve related parts today. I will let you all know the outcome of this. I've seen a lot of net searches for P0302 and wonder if #2 is a building related problem for these 3.8's.

[hatethewindstar]

I did the stuff some wire down the plug hole to keep the valves shut. problem is and don't get me wrong it works great but now the wire is caught on something in there. what the hell could it be caught on. can anyone post the chamber of a windstar head? these vans are piles of junk I swear!

NEVERMIND .... GOT THE KNOT OUT

[hatethewindstar]

Just thought I would let you know the outcome of this.

I decided not to change all 12 valve springs but only the 2 associated with cylinder number 2. .... The van runs absolutely perfect again, power is awesome again. idle is smooth as can be, throttle response is crisp & instant.

I drove for about 15 miles around two and maybe 5 miles on the freeway and it didn't skip a beat the whole time. No DTC's came showed up.

Simply awesome !!!!!!!!!! So if you have a windstar that won't run for crap and you hear a tapping noise and a weird popping noise in the plenum and out the tailpipe, your spark plug weirs arc really bad, dies all the time,

check your valve springs before you get in over your head in repairs. This one showed lean conditions on the back bank a few times but not the front. always had P0302 then manifested P0301 P0303 P0305 it also used to throw P0300

Hope this help someone frustrated as I was.

sorry no before or after compression tests were done. first start of the van after the springs were changed and I knew it was fine.

[12Ounce]

Thanks for the feedback. One forgets about valve springs. Of course, a compression test would have indicated something wrong with that cylinder ... but compression tests can be difficult. I have forced myself to do them ... nearly always beneficial. Running a compression test and recording the results ... when the engine is running OK, gives a good "base line" for later maintenance inspections. I have traced valve seat problems this way on other engines.

[hatethewindstar]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

Thanks for the feedback. One forgets about valve springs. Of course, a compression test would have indicated something wrong with that cylinder ... but compression tests can be difficult. I have forced myself to do them ... nearly always beneficial. Running a compression test and recording the results ... when the engine is running OK, gives a good "base line" for later maintenance inspections. I have traced valve seat problems this way on other engines.

This problem appeared to be more to do with the PCM or other electrical issue though verses a mechanical problem. here is a list of all the symptoms it had that I remember.

Sometime when starting it took like 10 seconds for it to finally start.
At times felt like a older car with the distributor a few teeth off and dragged the starter down.
Spark plug wires arced everywhere
Plug wires had like 1/16th inch streaks of light down the middle of them almost the whole length.
Of course the odd noises it made.
Position of throttle seemed to make the miss less noticeable.
After PCM was cleared of DTC's maybe 15 seconds after startup P0302 would immediately come up however the other misses detected only came after driving or beyond idle conditions.

A listed of work done to fix problem prior to valve spring discovery

Fuel filter
spark plugs (autolite AP 105)
spark plug wires
coil pack
new fuel injectors
remove rust on coil pack mount
crank position sensor
fuel pressure check
disconnect EGR
plug all vacuum line ports
valve cover update
it already had the runner control plastic clips done & bolt upgrade
none of the above work made the van run any better

The original coil pack was re-installed (ford one) back on the van prior to starting after valve spring replacement. #2 spark plug was heavily fouled and replaced with another new one.

If you have a miss in one of these 3.8's run a vacuum test first. Seems to be a common problem with these "beehive" springs breaking.

[danielsatur]

Did you go with the rope, or Air to hold the valves up?

[hatethewindstar]

Originally Posted by danielsatur

Did you go with the rope, or Air to hold the valves up?

Neither ... Just TDC the cylinder and you can remove and install the springs easily without a valve dropping down. Once new valve seals are slipped over the valve they will keep the valve up or if you use old seals once you slip the spring and retainer over the valve pry the valve up by the keeper groves and install the keepers the pull the spring and retainer up to lock the keepers in place and release the spring pressure. I put vaseline on the valves keeper groves and the keepers stuck right on.

About 20 minutes a spring.

[tempfixit]

hatethewinstar:

In post #8 you say that you put wire in the spark plug hole, then you had a hard time getting it out. Did this not help hold the vavle up?

[danielsatur]

If doing just the bad valve spring, TDC on that cylinder sounds the best way.


I done valve stem seal replacements on a 4.6L V8 with a OHC, and compressed air seem's to work best for me on all 16valves.

Thanks for the followup!