Excessive Oil Consumption '00 Windstar

[mark_gober]

Hey everyone,

I'm going to revive an old topic that I still haven't found a solution for. My windstar uses an excessive amount of oil. It has the 3.8l with around 160,000 miles. While I realize thats a lot of miles, the problem just sort of started happening quickly.

For the first few years I drove it, it burned very little, if any, oil. All of the sudden, I'd check it and it would be below the hash marks, or worse, just at the tip of the dipstick. I'd throw two quarts in there because I would only have like 1000 miles since my last oil change. It has been doing this for about a year now.

I've replaced the intake manifold gaskets/bolts that cause the 0171/0174 issues. I've replaced the PCV valve. My car was updated with the correct valve cover before I got it and yet I'm still losing oil. (BTW, it's not leaking or smoking excessively)

When it first started happening, the car started stumbling and I checked the spark plugs. Not surprisingly, 4 of the 6 spark plugs were almost completely bridged by carbon buildup. Put new ones in there and it ran fine. As a check on the oil problem, I pulled those out a few months later and two of the four were back to getting buildup on them (although not bridged yet).

I am thinking about replacing the valve stem seals to see if oil is leaking down that way. Does anyone have any thoughts on this being the problem? Any tips?

I've seen these "air hold" fittings that you screw into the head and use pressurized air to hold the valve up. Anyone ever used on on a Windstar? I'm betting the rear plugs would be murder using that tool. Alternatively, I've heard of people putting rope (or similar substance) into the cylinder hole to stop the valve from dropping all the in. While that certainly sounds plausible, it also sounds irritating.

I look forward to any input you guys may have on possible causes/solutions to this problem. (BTW, my brother has an '03 Windstar with EXACTLY the same problem, so my guess is it's a fairly common issue)

Mark

Just as a gauge, I'd say I'm losing about a quart for every 300-400 miles. I wish I were more accurate with that estimate, but recently my odometer was messed up. I've got it fixed now, so I'll start tracking it.

[hatethewindstar]

Originally Posted by mark_gober

Hey everyone,

I'm going to revive an old topic that I still haven't found a solution for. My windstar uses an excessive amount of oil. It has the 3.8l with around 160,000 miles. While I realize thats a lot of miles, the problem just sort of started happening quickly.

For the first few years I drove it, it burned very little, if any, oil. All of the sudden, I'd check it and it would be below the hash marks, or worse, just at the tip of the dipstick. I'd throw two quarts in there because I would only have like 1000 miles since my last oil change. It has been doing this for about a year now.

I've replaced the intake manifold gaskets/bolts that cause the 0171/0174 issues. I've replaced the PCV valve. My car was updated with the correct valve cover before I got it and yet I'm still losing oil. (BTW, it's not leaking or smoking excessively)

When it first started happening, the car started stumbling and I checked the spark plugs. Not surprisingly, 4 of the 6 spark plugs were almost completely bridged by carbon buildup. Put new ones in there and it ran fine. As a check on the oil problem, I pulled those out a few months later and two of the four were back to getting buildup on them (although not bridged yet).

I am thinking about replacing the valve stem seals to see if oil is leaking down that way. Does anyone have any thoughts on this being the problem? Any tips?

I've seen these "air hold" fittings that you screw into the head and use pressurized air to hold the valve up. Anyone ever used on on a Windstar? I'm betting the rear plugs would be murder using that tool. Alternatively, I've heard of people putting rope (or similar substance) into the cylinder hole to stop the valve from dropping all the in. While that certainly sounds plausible, it also sounds irritating.

I look forward to any input you guys may have on possible causes/solutions to this problem. (BTW, my brother has an '03 Windstar with EXACTLY the same problem, so my guess is it's a fairly common issue)

Mark

Just as a gauge, I'd say I'm losing about a quart for every 300-400 miles. I wish I were more accurate with that estimate, but recently my odometer was messed up. I've got it fixed now, so I'll start tracking it.

I have to change the valve springs on my 2000 not very hard to do. Just buy a autozone valve spring remover it basically grabs the sides of the spring and forces down the upper cap the secures the valve stem locks. use the rope idea not very hard just cram some in the plug hole and rotate motor ((((( by hand ))))) and it will keep the valves up.

mine loses oil too but at 80K miles and has puddles of oil in the intake and 1 broken valve spring. Not sure if this is related or not.

[tempfixit]

Have you done a compression test on all cylinders? I would do a dry test and a wet test. ( wet test is squirting a little oil in the cylinder then see if the compression increases) This would tell if you have bad rings or rings lined up.

[mark_gober]

Originally Posted by tempfixit

Have you done a compression test on all cylinders? I would do a dry test and a wet test. ( wet test is squirting a little oil in the cylinder then see if the compression increases) This would tell if you have bad rings or rings lined up.

Actually tried to do one a few months ago. I used to have a compression gauge, but had to sacrifice the hose in an emergency once (don't remember why), so I loaned one from Autozone. Got home and went to screw it into the spark plug hole and it was a HUGE P.O.S. The rubber tube actually rotates independently from the metal threaded part. As soon as the rubber O-ring would make contact, you could not thread it in any tighter because the hose would rotate and the fitting would stay stationary. TERRIBLE DESIGN. Almost everyone of these that I've ever used, the fitting is press fit onto the hose so that you can rotate the hose and screw it in. I never could get a decent fit using it. As soon as I'd crank the engine, it would start making these high pitched noises from the air escaping around the O-ring.

I took the tool back in disgust and told them that they should never even rent that garbage again. I'm sure Mr. $6/hour really relayed that message and they rented it to the next sucker. Honestly, I just haven't gotten back to checking on it since then.

I'll keep you posted.

Mark

[danielsatur]

Are you using a premium PCV filter?
If compression is bad, the exhaust smoke is blue.

If the valve stem seals are bad consider going with an external PCV valve + filter, so there's a little less oil being burned.

[12Ounce]

Just for reference, my '99 has never used any oil to any significant degree. I rebuilt the engine at 215k miles ... but it was using less than 1 qt per oil change. Of course, the rebuild put new seals and rings in place ... no rebore, no new pistons. Now at 303k miles, the oil consumption is near nil.

At 160k miles, I would suspect oil being drafted back through the PCV valve ...

[mark_gober]

Originally Posted by danielsatur

Are you using a premium PCV filter?
If compression is bad, the exhaust smoke is blue.

If the valve stem seals are bad consider going with an external PCV valve + filter, so there's a little less oil being burned.

Just curious, but why not just replace the valve stem seals? I've seen the external PCV valve setups, but how would that prevent oil from going past the valve stem seals?

Mark

P.S. The PCV valve is only about 3 months old. I can grab another one and see what happens, I guess.

[12Ounce]

As a test, you could remove the PVC system ... valve and hoses. Plug the two inlets into the engine intake ... but leave both openings to the engine-proper free and open. This will be a through-back to pre-PVC engine design ... but I think it would run OK.

You would expect some smoke to be vented from the PVC hole ... just how much is the question.

[danielsatur]

What brand PCV valve are you using?

The ''In car Valve stem seal replacement'' , is alot time and work.
Plastic, rubber, and seals go bad with age + mileage.

I would hate todo all that work, and a Head gasket, or drain pan gasket go's bad!

Consider pulling the Engine, and do a reseal of gaskets, valve stem seals, and freeze plugs on the engine & transmission.

You can also use 3k used oil from the other Auto during oil change to put in van, if oil is getting expensive!
Still keep the regular oil changes in the meantime.

[northern piper]

while this might not tell you why you're burning what I'd say is a fair amount of oil, sending a sample to Blackstone labs may shed some light on the health of your motor. It's a simple thing to do, costs very little and may just give you a bigger insight to your van. I did it a while ago and was pretty impressed with what they told me. They'll send you everything you need to do the sample.

[mark_gober]

Originally Posted by danielsatur

What brand PCV valve are you using?

The ''In car Valve stem seal replacement'' , is alot time and work.
Plastic, rubber, and seals go bad with age + mileage.

I would hate todo all that work, and a Head gasket, or drain pan gasket go's bad!

Consider pulling the Engine, and do a reseal of gaskets, valve stem seals, and freeze plugs on the engine & transmission.

You can also use 3k used oil from the other Auto during oil change to put in van, if oil is getting expensive!
Still keep the regular oil changes in the meantime.

Daniel,

I'm lost now. I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. The valve stem seals are accessible directly from the valve cover. You just have to remove the valve springs and replace the seals. They are rubber. Why are you talking about pulling the engine, freeze plugs, head gaskets, etc.?

The PCV valve is just the standard valve that you get at the auto parts store. I bought it at Autozone. While I may not be an automotive engineer, I'm not sure a "premium" PCV valve is any more effective than a standard model. Especially considering that mine is less than 3 months old.

Frankly, 12 oz.'s suggestion would certainly assist in troubleshooting the PCV valve. (although honestly for the cost, you could just buy a new one) But the fact remains that I've already purchased a new one and had absolutely no change in symptoms. While it's possible that I got a bad one, I am very skeptical that a new one is bad in exactly the same manner as my old one that was years old.

Mark

P.S. NorthernPiper, how much was the test and what exactly did they tell you? I'm just wondering what sort of info you could gain about the health of your engine from an oil test?

[danielsatur]

I know with a Lincoln Town car, if you don't use Motorcraft it will consume more oil during oil changes.

Pic a OHC V8 with 16 valves / 32 valve keepers, and working around the cam!
Forget about the magnet, and grease on a screw driver.
Use a light drinking straw packed full of grease to hold the keepers during the replacement.

I have done it befor, and 1year later the rear freeze plug went bad.

[12Ounce]

Using Blackstone is a good idea. I have had several samples analyzed over the last few years ... in fact, I now keep a pre-paid account there for faster turn-around.

As far as replacing valve seals ... it might be something I would do in some situations: But mostly, and especially for a "keeper" car ... I had just as soon remove the heads and get a complete valve job done. Often valve stems and guides are worn too much for good service. Plus the valves and seats are re-fitted ... as well as the cyl tops get cleaned.

[northern piper]

well on 3 different tests from Blackstone, I've learned a lot. First off, I think they're about $25 a test. Check the blackstone site and it'll confirm. I just send the sample and my visa card and know it's in that neighborhood dollar-wise. Anyway, while I don't know if it'll offer a ton of info on your particular oil burning situation, it really is like running blood work on your car. (As I'm in the medical field, I'm "pro" test, as they tend to shed light on the various systems within a "body". Soo, take my bias for what its worth.) Anyway, in my particular 3 unique situations, I learned a) that coolant was seeping into my oil (used one of those gasket additives for the coolant and upon resample problem was gone and continues to be despite there were no symptoms on the vehicle), replaced tranny fluid (yes, they test tranny fluid as well as oil) as it was showing large signs of wear on the tranny evidenced by metals within the tranny fluid. Upon retest no signs so I'm considering that a "win"). Third sample said massive wear on piston rings on vehicle that a friend of mine was considering selling now or waiting till next year.. so he sold to dealer on trade in now..)

So, often as with medical tests, it's the comparative test that is helpful. Run a sample to Blackstone, get the results, do what they say, if anything, run another sample 3000 to 5000 km (sorry Canadian!) and see again. I honestly believe on the coolant sample their test saved me a head gasket job on a jeep that I sold just 2 months ago that had 0 problems. The sample that showed coolant was about a year ago.

I just figure that for my $25, anything that can help me avoid, or at least forecast, repairs, is a good thing. Now they will often try to have you run every oil change sample to them which I don't do, but I bet I send every 3 for evaluation.

I'd be interested to hear what others have found.

HTH

p

[mark_gober]

Originally Posted by danielsatur

I know with a Lincoln Town car, if you don't use Motorcraft it will consume more oil during oil changes.

Pic a OHC V8 with 16 valves / 32 valve keepers, and working around the cam!
Forget about the magnet, and grease on a screw driver.
Use a light drinking straw packed full of grease to hold the keepers during the replacement.

I have done it befor, and 1year later the rear freeze plug went bad.

Daniel,

The 3.8L isn't an overhead cam. This engine would actually be very easy to replace the valve stem seals. I suspect that with the parts on hand and changing the valve seals one cylinder at a time, it would take me around 3-4 hours.

While I'm not doubting your freeze plugs went bad, I don't think it had anything to do with your valve seals. Freeze plugs actually very rarely "go bad". They usually do what they are intended to do which is pop out if the antifreeze freezes.