'97 Grand prix takes long to start, P0441 DTC and bubbling brake pedal

[olopezm]

Hello everybody, this is my second time needing your help and I really want to thank all of you people for your time and efforts to help.

1) My GP takes about 10 seconds cranking the engine so it can start, I noticed that if I turn the switch on and off (without starting the engine) 3 to 4 times in a row it will start inmediatly when I crank the engine. Also when the engine is cold the car will run fine no problems on reving, etc. but as I drive and the engine's temp goes to the normal operating temp (about half of the temp gauge) the car will start running rough and it will take longer to go from 0 to 60 or to reach a cruising speed, sometimes I have to step all the way down the gas pedal in order to have a decent response and sometimes while waiting for the green light at the street the engine's RPM's will alternate between 500 and 1000 until I rev up the engine.

2) Every morning I start the engine and drive, as soon as I shift from (P)arking to (D)rive or (R)everse the brake pedal feels like it is bubbling and becomes hard to brake for about a second. After that it will work fine untill the engine cools down and I drive again.

3) I have a P0441 trouble code wich started yesterday, previously my check engine soon went on, but after an hour of driving it went off, however it came back on yesterday so I had it scanned and the result was the P0441 code. I've read that it is related to the evap system, also today when i came home I noticed a hissing sound coming out from the back of the car near the rear left wheel and a gas smell too, I will check that tomorrow morning. Also my fuel economy has become twice than before.

What Do you guys think about my problems, do my engine poblems can be due to a broken fuel line?, Is there any problem with my ABS system?.

Thanks in advance and hope to hear from anyone soon .

Best regards...

Oscar

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Everything but the P0441 DTC has been solved thanks to tblake,richtazz, Mickey#1 and doctorhrdware (I'm sorry if I'm missing somebody else). Here is how I fixed each symptom:

1) CAR HARD TO START AND ROUGH RUNNING were due to two different things a broken spark plug wire (thanks to the guy who broke it..) and a fuel pump going bad. I replaced both and the car starts at the first attemp and as soon as I crank the engine.
2) ERRATIC RPM's: MAP sensor was literally broken (same guy who broke the wire form above) and a bad MAF sensor caused this too. using carbuclean on the MAF sensor resulted in good driving for an hour or two, but things went back to previous state after; I ended up replacing it too.
3) BUBBLING BRAKE PEDAL AFTER STARTING THE ENGINE: this wasn't a real problem, this is due to the ABS system making a selftest everytime the car starts.Thanks to tblake for this.
4) HISSING NOISE: once again was due to a bad fuel pump.
5) FUEL SMELL AND LOW FUEL ECONOMY: was due to poor quality spark plug wires and bad spark plugs too.

[tblake]

Pull the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator, then have an assistant turn the key to on so the pump primes, but don't start. Check the vacuum port of the FPR for fuel contamination.

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by tblake

Pull the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator, then have an assistant turn the key to on so the pump primes, but don't start. Check the vacuum port of the FPR for fuel contamination.

Thanks for your response, I will check that tomorrow, in case of fuel contamination wich of my listed symptoms would correspond to that?.

Best regards...

[doctorhrdware]

All you will need to do is just replace the pressure regulator if you have fuel contamination in the vacuum line.

[richtazz]

P0441- Evap emissions incorrect purge flow.

This would be the cause of the hissing/gas smell at the left rear corner of the car as that is where the vapor canister is located. This can also cause excessive pressure (positive or negative) to build up in the tank causing fuel delivery issues and the lack of power after the car is warmed up. I would suspect either the purge solenoid is not operating properly or the plastic line between it and the vapor canister is cracked/broken. Checking the FPR is solid advice too. A bad regulator can cause the 3-4 key cycles before it starts issue you're having and the purge issue shouldn't affect cold starting, unless the tank holds the pressure overnight which is unlikely. When you remove the gas cap to refuel, do you notice a strong "whoosh" of air as you open the cap?

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by doctorhrdware

All you will need to do is just replace the pressure regulator if you have fuel contamination in the vacuum line.

Hi, thanks for your help I will check that...

Originally Posted by richtazz

P0441- Evap emissions incorrect purge flow.

This would be the cause of the hissing/gas smell at the left rear corner of the car as that is where the vapor canister is located. This can also cause excessive pressure (positive or negative) to build up in the tank causing fuel delivery issues and the lack of power after the car is warmed up. I would suspect either the purge solenoid is not operating properly or the plastic line between it and the vapor canister is cracked/broken. Checking the FPR is solid advice too. A bad regulator can cause the 3-4 key cycles before it starts issue you're having and the purge issue shouldn't affect cold starting, unless the tank holds the pressure overnight which is unlikely. When you remove the gas cap to refuel, do you notice a strong "whoosh" of air as you open the cap?

Hi, thanks for your help, I just checked the gas cap sound and it doesn't do it, is that good or bad?; maybe this can be the problem because is not closing properly?. I'm going to check the FPR, solenoid and the lines. Is there any way to test the FPR and Purge solenoid?.

Best Regards

Oscar

[richtazz]

No whoosh means that the pressure isn't holding in the tank overnight, but also do this to check for excessive tank pressure when the car starts acting up. This would push me back toward either a major vacuum leak which I forgot to mention before (as the purge solenoid, FPR and brake booster are all vacuum operated), or a borderline bad fuel pump if the FPR checks out and/or there is no vacuum leak found.

Have you noticed the HVAC system not switching from vent to floor to defrost properly? The mode side of the HVAC system is also vacuum operated and would indicate a vacuum leak if they don't switch.

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by richtazz

No whoosh means that the pressure isn't holding in the tank overnight, but also do this to check for excessive tank pressure when the car starts acting up. This would push me back toward either a major vacuum leak which I forgot to mention before (as the purge solenoid, FPR and brake booster are all vacuum operated), or a borderline bad fuel pump if the FPR checks out and/or there is no vacuum leak found.

Have you noticed the HVAC system not switching from vent to floor to defrost properly? The mode side of the HVAC system is also vacuum operated and would indicate a vacuum leak if they don't switch.

Hello again, I just checked the HVAC, they switch well if I change from "vent and floor" to "defrost" but if I do it from "defrost" to "vent to floor" the vents dont' seem to blow enough air, just the floor; I have to go to "just vent" and switch back to "vent to floor" for proper function.

[richtazz]

I would focus on looking for vacuum leaks at this point. The HVAC system has a canister that stores vacuum, so it may take time until the canister is depleted for it to stop switching. That may be why it started switching slower.

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by richtazz

I would focus on looking for vacuum leaks at this point. The HVAC system has a canister that stores vacuum, so it may take time until the canister is depleted for it to stop switching. That may be why it started switching slower.

I see... and I really don't like the sound of that, any clue about where to start looking? about two years ago my heat core radiator broke, so I bypassed the cooling lines in the drivebelt tensioner, hence there is no more heating to the inside of the car. So could you please give me any ideas about where to start looking?, Do you think it's gonna take long for me to check? Thanks again buddy...

I've just taken apart the fuel canister, if I blow any air through both lines, is one of them supposed to feel blocked? The other lines blows fine and I can listen to some sound in the fuel tank.

P.S I forgot to mention that I think my fuel pump has become kinda noisy, would this mean anything to you?

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by olopezm

I see... and I really don't like the sound of that, any clue about where to start looking? about two years ago my heat core radiator broke, so I bypassed the cooling lines in the drivebelt tensioner, hence there is no more heating to the inside of the car. So could you please give me any ideas about where to start looking?, Do you think it's gonna take long for me to check? Thanks again buddy...

I've just taken apart the fuel canister, if I blow any air through both lines, is one of them supposed to feel blocked? The other lines blows fine and I can listen to some sound in the fuel tank.

P.S I forgot to mention that I think my fuel pump has become kinda noisy, would this mean anything to you?

I took the car for a ride and I've found a new symptom, sometimes when I brake at a red light the transmiision feels like it's not disengaging properly for about half a second, just like if I put de car in (D)rive and press the brake and gas pedals at the same time, since there is a vacuum line going to the transmission, would this definitely mean a vacuum line leak and is causing all my problems??

Thanks everyone for your help...

[olopezm]

It's me again, I've checked the vacuum lines on the engine and I found a broken 'T' fitting, it is vaccum line that goes into the metallic fuel lines on top of the engine and to the injectors, and at the same time goes into a diaphragm at the transmission. I already had it ordered at the dealer, it should be arriving next saturday. Do you think this might be the cause of my problems?

Thanks everyone in advance.

Best regards...

[tblake]

That would be a good place to start.

[olopezm]

Hello guys, I finally replaced the broken vacuum line I found, since the dealer doesn't have the same model anymore some adaptations had to be done in order to fit it to the engine. I uploaded 3 pictures showing wich line was replaced. Also I changed the fuel tank cap just in case, I'll be taking a close look to my car to see if the problems are gone or if there are any remaining symptons. Do you think this might have been the soruce of my problems?.

Thanks everyone for your help. I will post the results tomorrow...

Image showing the replaced T shaped vacuum line (circled)
[IMG] [/IMG]

Image showing the left side connector to the injectors:
[IMG][/IMG]

Image showing the right side connector for the transmission:
[IMG][/IMG]

[tblake]

Looks good. Do you have any more issues?