Indeniable proof

[ct91rs]

I should preface my comment by stating that I am by no means a theologian, and have no formal religious training. I have been attempting to provide the most satisfying, yet Biblically accurate answers, I am capable of.

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

if jesus is gods son and we are all gods children that would make us brothers so why is he so special.and in the bible it says that we are brothers with christ and all heirs to the throne of god(implying that god will die someday?).

We were all created in God’s image. Jesus is special because He is God in the human form.

Hebrews 12:2
”Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
Matthew 19:28
”Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne…”
Matthew 25:31
”When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.”
Revelation 3:21
”To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me [Jesus] on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.”
Revelation 8:9-10
“Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever.”

Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate or imply that God will cease to exist. That would be a contradiction of God’s nature(eternal).

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

and in the 10 commandments it says do not worship any gods except god himself. so if you worship jesus as a god which all christian people do arent u breaking the commandments. coorect me if im wrong but just a thought.

That is an astute observation.

There are two main points I would like to touch on.

1. Christians should live by the 10 commandments, but they are not “under the law” as those of the Jewish faith are. Jews believe they must follow the commandments to win the approval and acceptance of God, and to achieve salvation. Christians also follow the commandments, but they have been saved by the grace of God. This grace is a gift from God, faith in Jesus Christ, and not something attained or achieved by human volition.

2. The second part, and more to your point, is eminently more difficult to explain and understand. There is one God, and at the same time there are three distinct persons who are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is the concept of a Trinity which is clearly taught in the Bible. These are not separate, yet they are distinct, and God is simultaneously all three persons at the same time. The Trinity goes beyond reason, but not against it. Many non-Christians may look at this represented as 1+1+1=3 persons, but it is more like 1x1x1=1, to use a very poor analogy. Thus, whether you are worshipping Jesus, God the Father, or the Holy Spirit, you are worshipping the same (single) God. Therefore, when you reject Jesus you also reject God.

[twospirits]

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

hmmm wonder why he got banned? 3000 posts down the drain.

For a moment I was thinking what is he talking about. Who got banned? And I see its me. Naa I'm not banned (even though alot would be rejoicing if I was). I just put that title for a short while, I may change it back.

Okay lets continue with the discussion..

Originally Posted by ct91rs

We were all created in God’s image. Jesus is special because He is God in the human form.

If that is true, then God surely sent a very limited version of himself, since God to my understanding is capable of much more than what Jesus did on earth. Then there is the point of if he is God then why go through the pain and suffering by his people by being wipped, hit and cruxified?

Originally Posted by ct91rs

1. Christians should live by the 10 commandments, but they are not “under the law” as those of the Jewish faith are. Jews believe they must follow the commandments to win the approval and acceptance of God, and to achieve salvation. Christians also follow the commandments, but they have been saved by the grace of God. This grace is a gift from God, faith in Jesus Christ, and not something attained or achieved by human volition.

In basically, the Christians and their version of God is better than teh Jewish (or any other) God version. That still leaves them out of the loop of coming into heaven. Which brings me back to my point, What about all those other folks that do not believe in Jesus. Are they to be kept out of the kingdom of God?

TS out

[ct91rs]

Originally Posted by twospirits

Now that brings up another question. If you reject Jesus Christ, the Bible states that you are damned? Say what. What about millions of Jews, Buddists (sp) etc, that don't. Are they to be damn.

Yes, as AlmostStock stated, there is no other way to interpret the New Testament.

Originally Posted by twospirits

So much for a kind and loving God.

Not so fast. God is kind and loving, but He is also righteous and just. The New Testament makes abundantly clear that without Christ you will not see eternal life. It does not indicate that those who have never heard the message of Christ will be damned. God is just, so everyone will be given the opportunity to profess Jesus as Lord. If you reject the gift, you reject God Himself, and thus you will have condemned yourself.

Originally Posted by twospirits

What I don't get is this. If God really wanted his message about his dying son forgiving our sins, why just place him in only one spot on earth to do the message. Lord knows (pun intended) there were millions of folks already living elsewhere in the world. Why not have all those also experience that vision at the same time. Or place more sons around the earth as well.

These questions, while intriguing, are impossible for a human being to answer.

Originally Posted by twospirits

If I am not mistaken the incident that happened with Jesus did not make world wide converts at the time. It took centuries and if it wasn't for one ruler in Rome to make it the official religion, I seriously doubt it would have grown so much. It would have been one of the countless cults of the day.

That's correct, after the crucifixion, Jesus’ disciples actually denounced their affiliation with Him, feeling that He may not be God, and wishing to avoid persecution, possibly crucifixion, themselves. But then He rose again, and appeared to them. They came back with an unbelievable zeal. Roman guards were stationed at His tomb. It was found to be empty. Both Caesar and the Jews viewed Jesus and His followers as a thorn in their side, a threat to their power. All they needed to do was to produce the body and Christianity would have ceased to exist. They could have shown that He didn't rise from the dead, but with Roman centurions on the guard, the body had disappeared.

Late liberal scholar John A. T. Robinson of Cambridge conceded that the burial of Jesus Christ “is one of the earliest and best-attested facts about Jesus.” Scholar D. H. van Daalen has noted, “It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions.”

“When you understand the role of women in first-century Jewish society, what’s really extraordinary is that this empty tomb story should feature women as the discoverers of the empty tomb. Not only did women have low social status in Jewish society, but their testimonies were not even legally valid. “Any later legendary account would have certainly portrayed male disciples as discovering the tomb….This shows that the Gospel writers faithfully recorded what happened, even if it was embarrassing.” Lee Strobel (Former atheist and legal editor for the Chicago Tribune)

Originally Posted by twospirits

Still, I can see the concept of a God. One God, whatever you may choose to call him/her/it. But to say if you reject Jesus Christ you are damn, give me a freaking break. Most folks in the world believe in a God, and he/she/it has many names, but not everyone believes in Jesus. So to suggest that those that don't will be damn is arrogant and absurd.

If Jesus existed, and is who He claimed to be, as I attempted to explain about the Trinity to blakscorpion21, you cannot reject Jesus without rejecting God, they are one in the same.

Many intellectually informed atheists will affirm that Jesus existed, and was a good moral teacher; that being the case, there are only a few alternatives:

“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse.” - CS Lewis


I’m sorry you feel this is an arrogant position. I consider myself better than no man. I feel it has been made abundantly clear to me that Jesus is God. It is therefore my duty as a Christian to inform others of the gift of salvation. If Jesus was who He said He was, the New Testament must be right, and He is the only way to God. You can either accept or reject this. I am merely trying to peak your curiosity and give you the opportunity to get to know Him.

[twospirits]

Originally Posted by ct91rs

I am merely trying to peak your curiosity and give you the opportunity to get to know Him.

Trust me when I say I am always curious, which is why I ask such questions. I may or may not agree with all thats said, but I do find the responces quite informative and interesting. I do believe that Jesus existed, but not to the extent that the Bible states. Since the Bible has been re-written by man over and over. Who knows what the real truth is, but I am one that needs more proof or results.

TS out

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by twospirits

What I don't get is this. If God really wanted his message about his dying son forgiving our sins, why just place him in only one spot on earth to do the message. Lord knows (pun intended) there were millions of folks already living elsewhere in the world. Why not have all those also experience that vision at the same time. Or place more sons around the earth as well. If I am not mistaken the incident that happened with Jesus did not make world wide converts at the time. It took centuries and if it wasn't for one ruler in Rome to make it the official religion, I seriously doubt it would have grown so much. It would have been one of the countless cults of the day.

TS out

I won't attempt to answer the questions that have already been answered by CT91RS (wonderfully I might add). This one I do have my own interpritation though.

"It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment. "(Hebrews 9:27)

When Jesus came into this world He came as a man. He came with a purpose. The purpose was to become a sacrifice for all people. I don't believe it was His intention to spread His message of salvation to all the world. That's the job of His followers. Jesus fulfilled His mission here and died once then came His judgement. Because He carried the sins of the world with Him he was judged for us (or in place of us). Since He was not guilty of any sins of His own then He was allowed into heaven. I believe at that time He was still judged under the law because the age of grace hadn't begun. Actually it couldn't begin until after He entered heaven and sat at the throne. At that time our sins were basically tossed out if we choose to become a follower of Christ. Remember He died for those sins. If we reject Him then we are judged on our own merits. "Sin cannot enter heaven" , "All have sinned and fallen short.."

Anyway what it comes down to is He died in only one place and only once because at that time He was a man and it only took one man to be a sacrafice for everyone.

[blakscorpion21]

what about all the people that lived before jesus was born? did they all go to hell? and if satan was once a man then an angel and then the devil. how could he have been in the devil stage when adam and eve were around if they were the first people and the universe was just created satan wouldnt have been born, died, and fallen from heraven so he couldnt have been around in the garden cause no other people have been born yet. and if satan is just a dead man what gives him more power than any other man.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

what about all the people that lived before jesus was born? did they all go to hell? and if satan was once a man then an angel and then the devil. how could he have been in the devil stage when adam and eve were around if they were the first people and the universe was just created satan wouldnt have been born, died, and fallen from heraven so he couldnt have been around in the garden cause no other people have been born yet. and if satan is just a dead man what gives him more power than any other man.

ct91rs will have to help me out with the exact verses here. I'm better at giving my interpretations of what I have learned and studied than I am at memorizing verses.

The people who lived before Jesus were in Sheol(sp?). Basically it's a place where they were staying until Christ died and made a way for them to enter heaven. Remember that sin cannot enter heaven so a sacrafice had to be made that washed away their sin.

Satan was not a man. He was created as Lucifer. He was the most powerful of all the angels. He became filled with pride and decided to try and overthrow God. Other angels sided with him and they were all tossed out of heaven into hell. He was given (or retained) certain powers on earth. Basically his power is to tempt. As I understand it he was thrown out of heaven before man was created. So even in the garden he was tempting Adam and Eve.

[AlmostStock]

Originally Posted by twospirits

For a moment I was thinking what is he talking about. Who got banned? And I see its me. Naa I'm not banned (even though alot would be rejoicing if I was). I just put that title for a short while, I may change it back.

How about "Banned, yet I rise again"

[AlmostStock]

Originally Posted by DGB454

Remember that sin cannot enter heaven so a sacrafice had to be made that washed away their sin.

I always wondered how a sacrifice could atone for any ones sins. The Old Testament is filled with animal sacrifice. Why would this please God? He could have all the animals he wanted, dead or alive. Plus correct me if I'm wrong but the people still ate and used the animal after it's death right? So it wasn't like they were really even giving up anything.

Then we have the New Testament. Jesus giving his life for our sins is just an extension of the same logic, except he's the ultimate and final sacrifice. We kill an animal (or Gods son) and God forgives our sins. I never understood how that works.

[ct91rs]

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

what about all the people that lived before jesus was born? did they all go to hell?

No. Those living before Jesus were judged by their faith in God. They were purified of their sins by the blood of Christ. Remember, Christ has always existed. His death paid for the sins of all mankind, not just those who lived after Him.

The Bible does not directly answer the question about the fate of those who have not heard of Christ. But there are some things that we can infer, based on related passages, and overall themes.

Every soul that has ever lived will appear before God’s throne to face judgment. Belief in Christ is necessary for your name to appear in the book of life. God has described Himself as being just, and will allow anyone who has tired earnestly too seek Him the opportunity to believe in Jesus Christ.

God says, “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.” (Jeremiah 29:13)

Matthew 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.”

Romans 2:6-8 “God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. "

Revelation 20:12-15 “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

and if satan was once a man then an angel and then the devil. how could he have been in the devil stage when adam and eve were around if they were the first people and the universe was just created satan wouldnt have been born, died, and fallen from heraven so he couldnt have been around in the garden cause no other people have been born yet. and if satan is just a dead man what gives him more power than any other man.

True, that would be illogical, but Satan was not born, he was an angle created by God. As DGB454 pointed out, He was created as Lucifer (literally meaning light-bearer). But he chose to rebel against God.

Luke 10:18 “He [Jesus] replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”

Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon[satan], and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Isaiah 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

Ezekiel 28:12-17 ...You [Lucifer]were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you...
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub[angel], for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor...

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

I always wondered how a sacrifice could atone for any ones sins. The Old Testament is filled with animal sacrifice. Why would this please God? He could have all the animals he wanted, dead or alive. Plus correct me if I'm wrong but the people still ate and used the animal after it's death right? So it wasn't like they were really even giving up anything.

An animal sacrifice was more symbolic than anything IMO. A life for a life.

Then we have the New Testament. Jesus giving his life for our sins is just an extension of the same logic, except he's the ultimate and final sacrifice. We kill an animal (or Gods son) and God forgives our sins. I never understood how that works.

You have it exactly right.It was all leading up to the ultimate sacrifice. God Himself sacrificed His Son. Or as I see it; God sacrificed Himself because Jesus was God in the flesh. So the one who created us came down to our level and showed us how muched He loved and cared for us by going through all of that.

How it works? God only knows. He set up the rules so we either play by them or play by our own rules.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by ct91rs

No. Those living before Jesus were judged by their faith in God. They were purified of their sins by the blood of Christ. Remember, Christ has always existed. His death paid for the sins of all mankind, not just those who lived after Him.

ct91rs
Question:

Does this verse in your opinion refer to those that died before Jesus?

(Luke 23:43) and at His ascension He led "captivity captive" and delivered the prisoners of hope from paradise and led them to heaven.



Thanks
DGB

[blakscorpion21]

but why is satan stronger than a man?

[DGB454]

He was created with more powers than man. Temptation is the only power he is able to use against man.

[blakscorpion21]

if god dislikes satan so much why doesnt he just destroy him?