What happend to outdoing the Evo??

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by 95TegSE

Sorry to go off topic and be an asshole, Jared, but as a college student you have horrible grammatical skills. Where do you go to school?

I spent my highschool years in the former USSR. Simfaropal Ukraine to be exact (which is why my spelling sucks, everything in Russian is spelled phonetically). But now I am back in America and currently in a Jr collage in Gulfport Mississippi.

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by kfoote

Jared,

Since you seem to think that weight distribution is the primary factor in setting toe on a car, can you then explain to me why both the Porsche 996 and the Mustang run virtually identical front toe out settings (6mm total front toe out on a 996 on 18" wheels, 3/16" total toe out on the Mustang with 17" wheels) with totally different weight distributions?

While you're at it, can you explain why a Porsche 993 with virtually identical weight distribution to the 996 runs 4 mm total toe out in the front on 18" wheels, a significant percentage difference?

And why does a Mazda Miata have the same toe both front and rear as a Formula Ford and a Laughlin Chassis Busch Grand National road course car? They all have VERY different weight distributions.

Because different cars are built for different people genus. People who like extreamly stable cars will tend to buy cars with less toe out than a racing fanatic. Secondly the Mustang has a solid rear end which destabalizes it on less than perfect surfaces its toe is probably used to compensate for its ancient rear sespension.

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by 2turboimports

ok big guy. i found a Modified Magazine at the gas station...it was the Feb. issue with teh 850hp rx-8 on the cover. i looked at every page and there was no comparison with an STI and EVO8. There were articles on both, but no comparison. what magazine are you reading this in? My friends and I are interested in this.

Sorry for the mistake it is Feb Sport Compact Car not Modified. I encourage you to read it.

[kfoote]

Hmmm, the 993, 996, and Mustang were all set up for road courses and for the same driver, as is the same case with the road course set-up Miata (two, actually) and the Busch North car. The Formula Ford driver has also driven Miatas with the same setup and been quite happy with it. So much for the "different people" argument.

Additionally, the solid rear axle and different driving styles have nothing to do with weight distribution, unless there is a significant weight difference between drivers in the same car, though when I set up a car for the track, we have some sort of ballast approximating the driver's weight in the driver's seat to remove that variable.

BTW, you may want to try spelling "Genius" correctly. It will help your (lost) cause. Also, I took 3 years of Russian, and there are many Russian words that aren't phonetic. A miyaki zhnak (phonetic here, there is no good direct translation of how the name of the letter is pronounced) is one of a few Cyrillic letters that does not have any sound attatched to it.

[2turboimports]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

By the way that carbon fiber intake manifold has much shorter than stock intake runners which all techheads know increase high RPM volumetric efficency, and thus hp. In addition to that the carbon fiber makes it several pounds lighter than the stocker. If you are going to make racing parts might as well make them out of the best materilas right? One of the keys to being a good tuner is being able to spot the differences between poser crap and real proformance parts. The fact that you are very critical of shiny objects is a big step in the right direction. But take my word on it that manifold is the real deal although it is not street legal. About half of what is advertised in tuner mags in my oppinion is either no better than stock or so slightly better that it makes no noticable difference, and thus is not worth the money. If you want to see what really works check out what the REAL racers use.

well...i only looked at the ad for about 1 minute while on a cell phone while balancing the mag on a 12 pack of bottled water..lol. so i didn't really pick apart the intake manifold technically. I always thought that when you weren't running idividual throttle bodies that technically longer intake runners helped with air delivery into the engine. Hence the butterfly valve on the honda's vtec intake manifolds that add another few inches of intake runner length. but that MAY be more relevant to smoother air delivery. i dunno right now, i'm too tired to think right now...lol i just finished cleaning up the wiring of an STI swap....talk about tedious wiring.

and you really can't say REAL racers when referring to parts being sold out of a magazine, b/c most everything made for a REAL race car isn't street legal. i can scan up some REAL race car parts for you from a couple of REAL race parts suppliers...

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by kfoote

Hmmm, the 993, 996, and Mustang were all set up for road courses and for the same driver, as is the same case with the road course set-up Miata (two, actually) and the Busch North car. The Formula Ford driver has also driven Miatas with the same setup and been quite happy with it. So much for the "different people" argument.

Additionally, the solid rear axle and different driving styles have nothing to do with weight distribution, unless there is a significant weight difference between drivers in the same car, though when I set up a car for the track, we have some sort of ballast approximating the driver's weight in the driver's seat to remove that variable.

BTW, you may want to try spelling "Genius" correctly. It will help your (lost) cause. Also, I took 3 years of Russian, and there are many Russian words that aren't phonetic. A miyaki zhnak (phonetic here, there is no good direct translation of how the name of the letter is pronounced) is one of a few Cyrillic letters that does not have any sound attatched to it.

Since the miyaki znack (there is not h sound in it, where did you hear that one from??) has no sound of it's own (it just makes the letter before it soft) it does not make something non-phonetic, it just helps place the stress of the word. The opposite of it is the tvorde znack which just makes the prevous letter harder. Maby these racecars that you are talking about have modified weight distrabutions? Or maby the driver found one setting that he liked and decided to use it on all of his cars? I don't know this driver but anybody with any sence what so ever could tell you that perfect suspention settings on different cars will be different. It also depends on the driver technique, some ballence their understear with toe while others ballence it with throtle (in RWDs) while others use a combanation of both. It realy depends on how skilled the driver is and in some cases how much hp you have to prompt on demand overstear (not a problem in most racing cars). Like I said all along different settings for different drivers for different cars. By the way the first thing that you need to do if you want an STi to match an Evo on the track it to replace it's toe control arm in it's multilink rearend. It makes too much toe in when compressed (which most stock multilinks do because the are designed for avrage drivers) look it up yourself. The Evo has no such problem with it's rearend, it's handeling is being compared with the supercars. Just read the Motortrends take on it or SCC article on it or better yet Modified magazins car of the year award.

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by 2turboimports

well...i only looked at the ad for about 1 minute while on a cell phone while balancing the mag on a 12 pack of bottled water..lol. so i didn't really pick apart the intake manifold technically. I always thought that when you weren't running idividual throttle bodies that technically longer intake runners helped with air delivery into the engine. Hence the butterfly valve on the honda's vtec intake manifolds that add another few inches of intake runner length. but that MAY be more relevant to smoother air delivery. i dunno right now, i'm too tired to think right now...lol i just finished cleaning up the wiring of an STI swap....talk about tedious wiring.

and you really can't say REAL racers when referring to parts being sold out of a magazine, b/c most everything made for a REAL race car isn't street legal. i can scan up some REAL race car parts for you from a couple of REAL race parts suppliers...

Bridged intake runners are great on street cars because they allow for a compramise between high hp short runners and high torque long runners (although they are not as good either in their spacific RPM ranges) I think the butterflys on the S2000s intake open at 6000RPM making the engine get better volumetric efficency at topend. By the way not all Vtechs have briged intake runners just the S2000 in America I think. BTW not all racing parts are illigal on the street just usualy the ones that affect combustion and and exaust. But you could use a racing turbocharger or an innercooler or racing chassie braces.....ect

[LjasonL]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

By the way the first thing that you need to do if you want an STi to match an Evo on the track it to replace it's toe control arm in it's multilink rearend.

Or you can change tires, rear sway, and suspension settings. Just seems a lot easier to me that way.

I read this article you're raving about in SCC... They didn't even test the cars on a track to see which one handled better! All they did was the skidpad and slalom, which as we've already been over, not NOT by ANY means say a car will handle better because it gets better numbers in those 2 tests. That's like saying a car is faster through the 1/4 mile because it dynos higher.

[LjasonL]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

BTW not all racing parts are illigal on the street just usualy the ones that affect combustion and and exaust. But you could use a racing turbocharger or an innercooler or racing chassie braces.....ect

A turbo doesn't affect combustion or exhaust?

[kfoote]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

...Maby these racecars that you are talking about have modified weight distrabutions?

Yes, the Mustang was down to 58%F 42%R distribution, the 996 was 38% F 62% R and the 993 was 36%F 64% R. Slightly better, but still significantly different from each other.

Originally Posted by Jared_80

Or maby the driver found one setting that he liked and decided to use it on all of his cars?

All 3 cars were set up for multiple drivers, though only one drove all 3. The drivers in this case don't deal with the actual numbers for the most part, just comment on what is there. Driver feel has nothing to do with weight distribution, so you're supporting my case here, not yours.

Originally Posted by Jared_80

I don't know this driver but anybody with any sence what so ever could tell you that perfect suspention settings on different cars will be different.

Since the toe settings are the same on these 3 cars, and the weight distributions are totally different, you're supporting my case here, not yours.

Originally Posted by Jared_80

It also depends on the driver technique, some ballence their understear with toe while others ballence it with throtle (in RWDs) while others use a combanation of both. It realy depends on how skilled the driver is and in some cases how much hp you have to prompt on demand overstear (not a problem in most racing cars).

Again, the 996, 993, and Mustang had the same driver with the same driving technique in all 3 cars. HP was about 380 for the 993, 420 for the 996, and 525 for the Mustang, similar enough to not require totally different driving styles. In any case, driving style and HP available have nothing to do with weight distribution, so you're supporting my case here, not yours.

Originally Posted by Jared_80

Like I said all along different settings for different drivers for different cars.

What you said in your post #74 was

Originally Posted by Jared_80

Although 0 toe is ideal in a perfect car people use it to compensate for poor weight balences in their production car. And even racers use it to fine tune their cars to the track that they are racing on. was weight distribution determines toe setting.

My point in the following posts was that it was suspension settings are A LOT more complicated than that, which is the point I've been arguing all along, and you have supported my argument a lot over the last few posts.

Originally Posted by Jared_80

By the way the first thing that you need to do if you want an STi to match an Evo on the track it to replace it's toe control arm in it's multilink rearend. It makes too much toe in when compressed (which most stock multilinks do because the are designed for avrage drivers) look it up yourself. The Evo has no such problem with it's rearend, it's handeling is being compared with the supercars. Just read the Motortrends take on it or SCC article on it or better yet Modified magazins car of the year award.

Or, I could put the DCCD in Manual mode. There is not one magazine article I have ever read where performance testing was done with the car in manual mode. Auto mode does very strange things to the handling of the car at the transitions from brake to throttle on that go away if the car is in manual mode. Or, as ldelaysionl mentioned the suspension settings that the car comes with from the factory are horrible. Or, I could also put on a set of tires that would be good for 4-5 sec/lap at most tracks. Or, I could relocate several other suspension points that would be of great benefit. As I have not driven an EVO, I can not accurately say what mods would be good for how much compared to stock. My decision for the STi over the EVO was based on the more advanced AWD system that comes stock, as that is not something I'm ever likely to modify on a street car, and I live where it snows quite often during the winter and the roads I drive on to work usually do not get plowed very well. Also, looking at the mods I would be likely to make to the car (Not what is available, but what I would actually do), the STi appeared to me that there would be more gains for the modifications I would be making in the STi than in the EVO. If I went in knowing that the only conditions I would ever drive the car in would be absolutely no modifications (including only running the stock tires) to the car or only on smooth dry pavement, then I would have bought the EVO, though if either of those had been the case, I may very well have ended up with something totally different. There are a lot of other things I would change in the STi suspension as well if I really wanted to make it an ultra-high performance car, but the reality of the situation is I will probably leave the driveline stock, and not move any of the suspension mounting points because I do have to use the STi to get to work every day, and if something brakes I don't want to have to wait 2 months to get custom parts made and not have anything to drive. For all intents and purposes, the STi and EVO have a few minor differences as to where their strengths and weaknesses are, and those characteristics pointed me to the STi rather than the EVO.

Even though I'm a suspension guy and not an engine guy, my basic knowledge of engine design, physics, chemistry, thermodynamics and aerodynamics lead me to agree with ldelaysionl when he imlpes that a turbocharger does indeed affect both combustion and exhaust.

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by ldelaysionl

A turbo doesn't affect combustion or exhaust?

Boost pressure affects combustion and exaust. Not the Turbo you run it through. Unless you have a major oil leak. The few difference between a smaller turbo and a larger one can be eliminated by using a good innercooler, so the turbo that you use does not nessasarly affect your combustion or exaust, and thus not illigal.

[Jared_80]

Kfoote how long can you make a reply that almost took up the whole page and despite all those words you said nothing usefull (writing alot of words does not mean that you know what you are talking about). The fact remains that cars with different weight splits (everything else being identical) will drive differently! It is just a fact of life live with it. People want different things for their suspension so they will continue to use different settings even on the same track with the same car. That is another fact that you seem to be missing. So go ahead and take up another 20 pages and keep saying that I you are right and I am wrong, and that I am actualy agreeing with you. Confuse the heck out of everybody here, but the facts still remain the Evo outhandles the STi in everybodys tests, the Evo is a better deal because it's proformance is better than the STi and it costs thousands less, and the Evo RS is going to thrash you even more because it is about 170lbs lighter. Cry whine gripe all you want to but don't come trying to argue with me without some real numbers from a reliable source. BTW if you actualy read what I wrote you will see that I did not once support what you were saying, quit assuming that I did. Since you are too self absorbed to notice this I was not saying that driver feel or hp affect the weight split! You would have to be some sort of retard to missunderstand somthing that bad. Your whole "you are supporting my case here not yours" argument needs go back to kindergarden for jerks where you got it from. How old are you anyway?

[freakray]

Originally Posted by Jared_80

Kfoote how long can you make a reply that almost took up the whole page and despite all those words you said nothing usefull (writing alot of words does not mean that you know what you are talking about).

This coming from....you?

How long will you continue?

This thread has gone so far from the original topic it must be a whole new record.

[Jared_80]

Originally Posted by freakray

This coming from....you?

How long will you continue?

This thread has gone so far from the original topic it must be a whole new record.

Hey at leased I know what I am talking about, unlike some of the other people in here. And you are right it has gone off topic that is why I am trying to shift it back. I am still waiting for a stock STi that can top 13.06 in the 1/4 or pull .97g on a skidpad. When I get the numbers on the new RS I'll post them too, but yall probably don't want to see them, you are too buisy sitting in your dark padded room chanting "the STi is faster, the STi is faster, the STi is faster" Let me state my honest oppinion oence again. I really do hope that they make the STi faster than the Evo. I always cheer for the underdog no matter how bad he is doing, but at the same time I live in the real world and tell it like it is as it stands right now the Evo is the faster cheaper car. Who knows maby next week they will release a better STi that will blow the Evo out of the water, then I will be going to the Evo forums and teasing them for letting the underdog beat them, telling them the same things that I am telling you, unlike most people I don't support any brand, I do my homework and find out who is the best. The brand is just a piece of plastic that is stamped on the front of the car, that means nothing to me, proformance and practicality are everything.
Kfoote otkuda te Ruske znish??

[2turboimports]

we should wrap this post in a big ballon, attach a basket and go sight seeing....who gives a crap anymore