Prisoners Of War executed

[rsxer45]

Originally posted by Milliardo


What are you still doing in Afghanistan? Al-Queda's gone from there, the Taliban have fled. You've no reason to still be there, unless the U.S. thinks it's far better to hold on to something.

To my knowledge, there are still pockets of al-Qaeda still within Afghanistan. But, the main reason why I think the US is still within Afghanistan is the fact that the new government isn't stabilized yet. A well organized attack by warlords and other factions within Afghanistan could easily destabalize the gov't and possibly lead to the formation of another Taliban if the US was not there to provide protection. The gov't is still extremely delicate---I think Hamid Karzai has probably had like three or four assasination attempts already. Once reconstruction is finished and the gov't is given a firm footing and a strong Afghani military is developed I think there will be a smaller if any US presence within Afghanistan.

[GTStang]

Those are great oil numbers. You really proved me wrong. Oh wait those are API's numbers . Do you know who the API is?
The API is an associatioon paid for and funded by American Petroleum companies. In other words. this is a type of lobbyist organization. So why would this matter?

Well they want to lobby the US people and government to give them more funding. How could they accomplish this... I know! by creating an image of an a badly out matched US oil industry. Oh no we better help them so we are not depending on foriegn oil, we better send them millions of US taxpayer dollars! Even if those numbers were accurate you are aware that we only have drilled for about 30% of the oil pools that we know exist in Alaska.

Also the Oil Reserve is a strategic device of the U.S.. Do you honestly think they would let it be common knowledge the exact numbers of oil we have stored?

I don't know why are fighitng about oil anyway. This war is not about oil. The first one oil had something to do with it no doubt. But this one oil is not the driving force.

Let's say Bush is the next Hitler in what he wants to do. So what??? He will never be able to do anything he wanted to. The US isn't Germany and the governments are totally different. Everything Bush does he is allowed to do cause that American people allow him to.

Also I know you didn't mean to but in a perverse way you complimented Bush. Hitler is infamously been know as a great speech maker and a extremely charismatic leader. Many historians have attributed this to his rise to power.

There is no point to argueing this either. Like the oil niether is valid

[Milliardo]

Originally posted by GTStang
Let's say Bush is the next Hitler in what he wants to do. So what??? He will never be able to do anything he wanted to. The US isn't Germany and the governments are totally different. Everything Bush does he is allowed to do cause that American people allow him to.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the German people basically allowed Hitler to do what he did. As one book charges, they were Hitler's willing executioners. The government systems might be different (Germany is parliamentary while the U.S. is Presidential), but freedom before Hitler's election was basically the same, and Hitler didn't introduce his totalitarian policies in one day. If one were to look at the similarities, both Hitler and Bush introduced them piecemeal. Dictators often introduce their policies in that way, not in one fell swoop. So, yeah, in sum, Bush can practically do anything he wants. He has the power and authority. He still finds use in a willing Congress which supports him, but who knows when time will come when he finds them more a hindrance than a willing tool. I've seen this argument before, and I keep telling those who say these things: anyone with the motive, the drive, the ambition, will do anything to get his way. If Bush wants to, he can do away with Congress and declare Martial Law in the U.S. But we are going too fast on that one...

Also I know you didn't mean to but in a perverse way you complimented Bush. Hitler is infamously been know as a great speech maker and a extremely charismatic leader. Many historians have attributed this to his rise to power.

Yes, Hitler was a great and persuasive speaker. He also used it to his own advantage. I wonder if that would still be a compliment...

There are many things known only to the government that could cause frenzy among the people of the US should it be known.

So we must assume that those kept must be so nefarious that if it were revealed, all hell would break loose.

the people really arent worried about the things they dont know about, if their life is ok then they dont care.

Yes, but most nations aren't wont to keep sinister secrets, since they don't make it a matter of routine to spark wars or engage in proxy wars either.

There is a VERY low number of civilian casualties

I must have imagined what I read about the dead children and adults in one Iraqi town. As I see it, the bombings might be concentrated on a particular target, but the blasts sure aren't--meaning, the resulting blasts might affect surrounding buildings and establishments.

I can understand how you might be against the war, but why the people who are fighting it?

Yes, the ultimate tear jerker. Not. Let me ask you this: have you considered first the lives of the many Iraqi civilians who will be caught in this war? You say, what about those fighting it? What about those who are should not be involved in it, but thanks to your war, are in it? If it hurts every soldier, then the more that the march to war should have been thought a thousand times over. But as most see it, there is nothing in Bush's mind except war--war at any cost, at any way.

It's war, people die

Needlessly. The more it should've been thought about then.

[jon@af]

This is the point where I would like to say: This war is happening right now and you nor anyone else you know is going to stop it. Get over the fact that people will die, and let it go. This is going to continue whether anyone likes it or not, and it will continue until the job is done. If this means US officials must stay in Iraq for a long period of time then so be it, but bitching about it isnt going to change anything at this point in time. You complain about the people who will die, how will you change their fate? Call up and tell the troops "hey, make sure that there isnt a person that shouldnt be there around before you shoot at those people attacking you" ? GET OVER IT, PEOPLE DIE IN WAR, NEEDLESSLY OR NOT, PEOPLE DIE. You dont think allied forces havent died? Are they not as important as the civilians in Iraq? Do they not have families who will be devistated upon learning their loved one will never come home? You dont like the war? what are you going to do about it, just decide to call the president and say "hey, I want this war to end, so do it"? NO. Does anyone understand my point? The war is happening and complaining about it wont make it go away or stop.

[The_ScareCrow]

Milliardo, take a chill pill and relax man, you're all worked up over something you'll never be able to do anything about.

[T4 Primera]

Originally posted by GTStang
Those are great oil numbers. You really proved me wrong. Oh wait those are API's numbers . Do you know who the API is?
The API is an associatioon paid for and funded by American Petroleum companies. In other words. this is a type of lobbyist organization. So why would this matter?

Well they want to lobby the US people and government to give them more funding. How could they accomplish this... I know! by creating an image of an a badly out matched US oil industry. Oh no we better help them so we are not depending on foriegn oil, we better send them millions of US taxpayer dollars! Even if those numbers were accurate you are aware that we only have drilled for about 30% of the oil pools that we know exist in Alaska.

So an association paid for and funded by American petroleum companies needs to lobby for funding? ... That one sentence is almost a contradiction in terms of itself

Ok then, so show me your numbers.....

[GTStang]

[quote]Originally posted by T4 Primera
[b]So an association paid for and funded by American petroleum companies needs to lobby for funding? ... That one sentence is almost a contradiction in terms of itself

The American Petroleum companies invest money to create this API. The API is like an advertising agency that puts out info for people like yourself to find. Also they have paid lobbyist that are in D.C. convincung senators/HOR to give GOVERNMENT!!!! funding to the American Oil Companies.
This funding is hopefully greater than the investment, this would make a profit.
Get it now?

Back to Hitler....
I don't want to get into a huge pre-socialist party economic/political/social history lesson of Germany. So simply put Germany had a much less stable and weaker government. All this set the stage for the ability for him to kill opposing politicians then eliminate the Parliament.
The difference of the U.S. is the whole U.S. government is a system of checks and balances. 3 branches of government all kept into check by each other. You can say the check s won't work but in America's history they have been tested frequently and everytime they have proved succesful. Not also to mention the totally different social/cultural issues(willing cohorts).

Read Albert Speers biography. Some of his opinions are biased cause he was Hitler's right hand man and he tried to save his own ass. Then read Gitta Sereny's book on Speer. It will help.

[T4 Primera]

Ok, I concede and retract my earlier foray into the capacity of US oil reserves.

However, I still contend that oil has alot to do with this invasion. The following links go some way to explaining why I hold this view and why the French and Russians oppose the invasion as well.

Iraq: the Struggle for Oil
Oil in Iraq: the heart of the Crisis

[Milliardo]

Originally posted by ILike2DriveCars
Get over the fact that people will die, and let it go....GET OVER IT, PEOPLE DIE IN WAR, NEEDLESSLY OR NOT, PEOPLE DIE.

I have never seen anything more callous, more insensitive post than this. So, we are to forget that people are being killed, needlessly, since, hey, it's a war anyway. People die, right? So let's go to war, because people will die one way or the other. Darn, that is so insensitive that I cannot even believe such an outrageous statement would be posted here.

You dont think allied forces havent died? Are they not as important as the civilians in Iraq? Do they not have families who will be devistated upon learning their loved one will never come home? You dont like the war?

Yes, both sides are suffering casualties. The more that people who wanted war should've stopped and asked if such a thing is even necessary. What will it all achieve? A glorious victory for the U.S., another feather in their (bloody) cap, for obliterating another nation all the way back to the 19th century? Yes, cheer on. Drink your beer and watch your news. Cheer your troops as they barge in and kill. People die anyway, and we don't have to care. We can't stop the war, and we don't have to because it will go on anyway. Such insensitivity.

The difference of the U.S. is the whole U.S. government is a system of checks and balances

Yes, yes, I've seen this argument before. And just like in any society, such things can be done away with. It has been done, and it can be done. All that is needed is to first have a state wherein a crisis is present. Hitler made sure that that crisis is present, and reminded Germans about it constantly. Sounds familiar? With the crisis in place, it is not hard to have the two other branches of government agree. A crisis galvanizes a people, and whatever differences in opinions they might have, once a crisis comes, they act in unison to avert that crisis. Now, see how this goes: a crisis comes, the President asks Congress to make bills that would grant him more leeway, or else more power, to act against that crisis accordingly. Congress, seeing that there is such a crisis, then grant those. The laws or acts passed have been carefully crafted, of course, to circumvent any law it might violate. Doesn't that sound rather familiar in the American landscape? So now we have the crisis and the acts in place. Where is your check and balance now? The next step would be critical: with the acts in effect, it is easy to tighten one's grip by using that crisis as an excuse. Think of it as the boy who cried wolf: he'll drill into people's minds that as long as the crisis is there, then the President will need more power to subdue it. Congress agrees, seeing the validity of the request, and the Judiciary steps aside, as the need is there. Where is your check and balance now? More power given, the less the check and balance is present. All these things done in incriments, mind you, without people noticing anything amiss. The crisis is always there to justify the need. Familiar? Hitler employed this tactic to his advantage, and Germany followed suit. America is now following the same path. Look at the comments I quoted above: war is justified! People die, so get over it! Do you see now the effect? Germany thought the same way: the Jews are to blame, so let's all round them up. Again, is the scenario familiar? Look around you and see: it is happening. America is slowly being turned on its head, and you barely notice it, content are you in marching to the beat of its drum.

[Milliardo]

[quote]Originally posted by GTStang
[b]

Originally posted by T4 Primera
So an association paid for and funded by American petroleum companies needs to lobby for funding? ... That one sentence is almost a contradiction in terms of itself

The American Petroleum companies invest money to create this API. The API is like an advertising agency that puts out info for people like yourself to find. Also they have paid lobbyist that are in D.C. convincung senators/HOR to give GOVERNMENT!!!! funding to the American Oil Companies.
This funding is hopefully greater than the investment, this would make a profit.
Get it now?

Actually, T4, I don ot see how this contradicts your post about U.S. oil reserves. Basically, it only solidifies the suspicion that the war in Iraq is nothing other than for oil. Thanks to these U.S. oil companies, their lobbying paid off: Bush is now in his war, eager to please the very people who supported his Presidential bid. Expect another Presidential bid next year, if there are still elections.

[T4 Primera]

I've only retracted the part about how long the US could supply it's own consumption....nothing else. Alaska is a bit of a mystery as far as unexplored potential but it is expensive to extract oil there anyway.

You are exactly right about the lobbyists Milliardo. I'd like to think I put that one in there as a booby trap, but in reality I completely missed the connection - I must be tired :o - thanks.

Anyone who cares to read the links I posted will see that US and UK oil companies can drop their production costs from $15-$16 per barrel down to $1.50 per barrel if given access to Iraqi oil.

Prior to the invasion, the US and UK were shut out of Iraq since the Russians, French and Chinese had already sewn up agreements once the sanctions were lifted. Guess which oil companies will get preference for developing the resources in Iraq while a US-UK coalition occupying army and coalition freindly government is present.......

[Prelewd]

Originally posted by Milliardo



Yes, both sides are suffering casualties. The more that people who wanted war should've stopped and asked if such a thing is even necessary. What will it all achieve? A glorious victory for the U.S., another feather in their (bloody) cap, for obliterating another nation all the way back to the 19th century? Yes, cheer on. Drink your beer and watch your news. Cheer your troops as they barge in and kill. People die anyway, and we don't have to care. We can't stop the war, and we don't have to because it will go on anyway. Such insensitivity.

..

America is slowly being turned on its head, and you barely notice it, content are you in marching to the beat of its drum.

It's insensitive, but true.. Maybe you are just a bit to sensitive, is your heart bleeding? Who wanted war by the way? We stopped 18 times and offered Saddam a way out. We gave him a chance to disarm. 12 years later, time's up. I'll drink my beer, watch my news, cheer my troops and celebrate when they come home safe.

...

I'm still more free in this country than any other country on earth, and I will march to the beat of it's drum to keep it that way.

[Pick]

We are getting off topic, so I will post this. The sons-of-bitches will pay for executing our solidiers one way or another. I think our method of choice in the very near future will be a MOAB up their ass. Baghdad will fall. We will get our solidiers back and every Iraqi soldier that stands between us will be killed or taken prisoner. Unless, of course, they pose as a civilian. In that case, they will be killed and will die knowing they fought dishonorably and that the burden of having more civilians killed was contingent on their moronic ideas. Nuff said.......

[jon@af]

Originally posted by ILike2DriveCars
GET OVER IT, PEOPLE DIE IN WAR, NEEDLESSLY OR NOT, PEOPLE DIE.

I hate to quote myself, but this serves a purpose it was said earlier that:

Originally posted by Milliardo I have never seen anything more callous, more insensitive post than this. So, we are to forget that people are being killed, needlessly, since, hey, it's a war anyway. People die, right? So let's go to war, because people will die one way or the other. Darn, that is so insensitive that I cannot even believe such an outrageous statement would be posted here.

I dont believe it was an outrageous statement at all. You have been showing your dislike toward the casualties of civilians in this war like you didnt expect them to even occur, I said that because in war situations, you will have this, and as I said earlier. GET OVER IT. You need to accept that fact that people will die, It may be hard to swallow but everyone else has to deal with hearing about it just as much as you and I. And, as it has been said numerous times before, people die in war, needlessly or not, people die. Hey, I think that's at the top of this post! Go figure!

Now, back on topic, When discussing those who killed the POW's, It will be very hard to find those who actually performed the killing, but we can however hold Iraq responsible for their deaths, which wouldnt surprise me if we did. I very much believe that the lives of those soldiers will not have been lost just to go unpunished. I believe that there will be more POW's taken by both sides, and hopefully Coalition POW's will begin to recieve better treatment, i.e. Not being killed. As for the outcome of this war, I hope it is sooner than later, as many do as well.

[TexasF355F1]

ILIKE2DRIVE, i totally understand what you are saying about "people die in war, get over it". A little bit nicer way of saying this however would be to say death is a part of life. No one knows how they are going to die, or when they will die. Everyone one who is in the service signed up knowing that one day they could go to war and may die defending their country. If anyone signed up just for a free education, they should have their asses kicked. And if someone joined not thinking of the possibility of war, they are extremely naive and have no business being in the military.