M3 Opponents

[hermitage]

We can go on forever, The M3 stock is definitely a better car. All I'm saying is that dollar for dollar, I feel the S4 is a better buy.

I can buy a stock S4 and spend a few grand and have it perform better if not the same as an M3. ...and still have money to spend. Both in straight line performance, and handling!

You can't argue the numbers....'nuff said!

[crayzayjay]

you know what they say... to each their own

[Deakins]

The price jump from a M3 up to a RS4 was smaller than the price jump from a S4 up to a M3.
I agree they are different cars, but the RS4 has allways been compared with the M3 and the C32 AMG.

[Marvelous3]

I would like to point out your are trying to compair a turbo car against and N/A one. Of course you can make a turbo car go fast for less money that it takes an N/A car to do the same. With the turbo you're just adding more boost (air) and boost is free. With a N/A motor is a little harder than just cramming more air and more fuel into the cylinder.

And with all due respect I think the S4 was built with the M3 in mind. M3's have been around since 86(I believe that was the first year) where as S4's only first appeared in the early 90's.

[vortech]

boost may be free marvelous-----but a turbo isn't. N/a vs. turbo/supercharger is all just the same. Look what Dodge did-----they put a long block in the Viper. A beastly one for that matter. Fair is fair----it doesn't matter how you make the power.

[Marvelous3]

When a turbo comes stock with a car that's free enough to me. The point I was trying to make is that you are trying to compair a N/A engine which is limited by the amount of air it can get by simple physics. A turbo engine gets as much air as the turbo can spool...the S4's stock turbo system can handle more boost than it comes out of the factory with. I know, personally, that a S4 TT can support 320hp on the stock system with no problems. And you can get that power for lays say 2000$ and be on the high side. Tack on another 2000$, again on the high side, and you can have as much power as your tranny, and drivetrain for that matter, will hold with a T78 turbo. Ask any turbo supra owner and he'll tell you this.

Now on the flip side of the coin what does it take to get a M3 to that level? Well 320 isn't hard...it's got the displacement for that (current is 3.3liters) now getting to come up significantly from there is hard. The engine is limited because it is naturally asperated so it can only make as much power as it can get in the cylinder on it's own. You can bump the redline to 9 or 10 thousand RPM and you'd get a big gain but you'd also have no low end so it's a win-lose situation.

An E34(I believe that was the M3 we were originally refering to) rolls off the lot with like 280hp or something like that( I don't know the figure off my head). So what does it take to get this stock M3 to 350hp? Exhaust, intake, ECU, port and polish, cam gear...you get the picture. All of which costs money. Now take that S40 with comes off the lot with 250hp...want a 100hp increase? Easy...Chip, intake, exhaust, and more boost(to make both cars relyable you'll want plugs and ignition stuff probably so I'm leaving this out on both). You'll spend less tuning turbo car because, as I said before, air is free. Twist that however you like but the fact remains.

So what if Dodge put a 7 or 8 or however many liter V10 in the Viper? It uses the same technology Dodge used in the 60's IE Pushrods. Take a look at your own car? Ford no longer uses pushrod V8's because the finally discovered you could make far more power with a cam engine...you wouldn't have the diesel truck like torque but why would you need max torque at 1500RPM? Also that long block's hp per liter is pathetic...if your car is still making 1hp her cubic inch you are living in the 60's and you will get left in the dust, literally. Look at any GT racing car that's worth looking at...Most of them are turbo's, even the Saleen's.

[vortech]

Ford switched to the 4.6L because of tougher emmission standards set by the Fed gov't. The modular engine is cleaner and more efficient. Ford has now developed a new 5.0L engine that will be back in about 2-3 yrs---makes about 425hp - 375tque - according to the newest press release. The 4.6L can make power-----you just have to do a shitload of swapping from what is currently being put into stangs. The M3 though, is not making 333 flywheel hp----I have a buddy of mine---who has this car---(01) and his dyno reading--totally stock---showed 331RWHP----the M3s are making more power than what the manufacturer suggests. Its like the rating on the 03 Cobra. The 03s have shown bone stock----to slam down up to 380rwhp & torque. Thats over 430hp and torque---BONE STOCK. The M3 inline 6 is very efficient. But mods like a chip, exhaust, headers----are virtually inexpensive----when you look at the gains. You can get up to a 35hp gain on the M3 just by porting the stock cylinder heads----for $600---thats pretty good dollar to hp ratio.

[Marvelous3]

Yet just the same, if you apply that 600$ port job to an S4 you'd see similar gains and actually those gains would be higher depending on the level of boost. Also the last I heard Dinan was having troubling making an ECU for the new M3 which is not the M3 I was refering to in my previous post...I'm talking 95-98M3.

Put that 600$ into an S4 and it would buy you a custom remapped ECU that could gain you at least 40hp.

[vortech]

i'd hate to see the S4 with ported heads and a turbo vs. an M3 with ported heads and a turbo. Audi is going in the right direction----but they always seem to be 2-3 years behind every one else as far as launching powerful cars.

[Marvelous3]

"still"

I wouldn't consider their RS cars to be lower than anyone else in the sport saloon market.

Take the same amount of money you'd dump into strapping a turbo onto a N/A M3 and you can put an even bigger turbo for the S4.

A S4 with ported heads and a turbo VS a M3 with ported heads and a turbo, the S4 would make more power...why? Because the CR of the S4 is lower than the M3 so it can run more boost.

The point I've been trying to make is that a S4 can be upgraded for less money than a M3. I think I've succeeded in doing that so I'm done with this post as it has gotten redundent the past couple posts. Good luck to you sir...

[Deakins]

Originally posted by Marvelous3
"still"
I wouldn't consider their RS cars to be lower than anyone else in the sport saloon market.

So that is why the M3 and the M5 get their ass kicked by the S4 and the RS6, respectively?

[vortech]

the RS6 is a twin turboed V8 making 450hp ---its 1/4 mile times---DO NOT KICK AN M3s ass. Learn about the M3s test numbers. RS6 is faster-----just barely. The 1/4 miles are true test------so I could care less about its claimed 0-60 being at 4.7-4.8. Also, the Rs6 doesn't have the M3s handling----:greenchai
Lastly, you must be talking about the Audi S4 MTM as being the so called blistering call as you keep alluding to---because any other stock S4 is nothing to get excited about.
Your turboed twosome----aren't that overly impressive compared to the N/A M3 & M5. You sound so silly----talking about those 2 cars---like they have some kind of talk dog performance. Those cars only impress in the 0-60------sure as hell don't in the 1/4 mile------and as far as handling goes-----you can't even compare them to the handling of an M3 or M5.

[Deakins]

I wasn't comparing the M3 to a RS6.
The RS6 beat the M5 around the Nordschleife, fair and square.
And the 344 hp, 410nm S4 isn't impressive to you? Driving it sure got me excited.

[Marvelous3]

0-60 and 1/4mile times are 95% driver and 5% car. Any real racer knows about that...I would love to see someone in real life turn out a "tested" 0-60 and/or 1/4 mile time.

[vortech]

I've been driving heavy duty clutches on muscles cars since I was 18. You don't need to be a racer to pull out a blistering 1/4 mile or 0-60. YOU NEED TO HAVE EXPERIENCE working clutches on high horsepower cars. You need to know your shift points in any car. I've had plenty experience ripping through the gears------especially with cars with more aggressive gear ratios-------and so have thousands of other people. If you can finesse your way through a heavy duty clutch, with high horsepower and agrresive gearing---you can easily rip off good times in any car as long as you have some time to toy with the car.